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Sat, 13 Jul 2024 00:00:47 +0000 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 17:00:44 -0700 From: Dan Williams To: Jakub Kicinski , Mauro Carvalho Chehab CC: Shuah Khan , Mark Brown , , , Subject: Re: [PATCH] docs: maintainer: discourage taking conversations off-list Message-ID: <6691c3aca15f4_8e85329470@dwillia2-xfh.jf.intel.com.notmuch> References: <20240712144903.392284-1-kuba@kernel.org> <7570937c-ead6-40bc-b17f-4ade34a2acf6@sirena.org.uk> <1a30aea2-e8e4-487d-81e4-dda5c1e8665e@linuxfoundation.org> <20240712201156.1413e80e@foz.lan> <20240712164504.76b15e31@kernel.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20240712164504.76b15e31@kernel.org> X-ClientProxiedBy: MW4PR02CA0021.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:303:16d::31) To PH8PR11MB8107.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:510:256::6) Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: workflows@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: PH8PR11MB8107:EE_|SA2PR11MB5052:EE_ X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 80b0418f-a823-4d6c-96d3-08dca2ced924 X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|376014|1800799024|366016; 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X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?us-ascii?Q?uXoS6IYBsBSaefN1CJzgpvbOJbAKDpmKrClJPjt85OKXzK5Y71QRT7gWphfU?= =?us-ascii?Q?A67aEvTKE+qxZhb3i32BDlvXYaea7OhECiZljjoxwFn7x0YQfhMioR/VEppX?= =?us-ascii?Q?NXq419kyModALwxD+yzFADiNB9eSW0NSyoGJD7Pm1vRP2sLISxMKqKS7wCUP?= =?us-ascii?Q?wPNwu0eLnrNuF2MNLIVJLVjvHV5GZlISdU2Wrba8g+K0jF+8nCe/kTlWfWWa?= =?us-ascii?Q?VnpbzqrA/EXAroq1URwvA0/czwiTMipIkhlFHQwKFZxIB7abOVtZX6sOxQW+?= =?us-ascii?Q?4Euf4g9SAWcr062Mbq8smWp+FY3v8SnLaq9e2ULN69b9my0tPDXA2nlL6E+I?= =?us-ascii?Q?h033ieg39s6wHNkuDsDPIAheyNnRRcz/W8yKaiAdoKCxYRvcWAmN9ciJ9tSf?= =?us-ascii?Q?JeAH2pwb70iQRGaVP60Qm8hA3/HVL5DwlB37o0Ba2i/QcibiCX++0Ya4xEpG?= =?us-ascii?Q?PNuPFtves5NoZpeg+EuTcozF7b+EeAXMr1nFJtHXPpHEastsgChVHJ5iXszd?= =?us-ascii?Q?dWxUPNkdzw1yc6gjmKb1sibGkEgksgIsrgy8fMXnQsn7yINODa714IuPgbej?= =?us-ascii?Q?vg3odLCxZDGyVyGyHCoBOtr6p/wHSE4+M6fzYAYfNAI9kiKlxa8IouTakJfR?= =?us-ascii?Q?vts6Wg3LWaOHsg9JksAz7YcwloHq3fsSAalBdgVrrVZCUdmV+Bb35ZtINs+Y?= =?us-ascii?Q?cH5SHsujAPwgHwTFdz5L3Neqt8bIQy2Zgu3kPlxeZ+9xP7rA+racELWlW8PV?= =?us-ascii?Q?uR8xAu/hCtKugmZupBN8O6qhcVIG4/wHE+bPNk3N9UF8uq30E5IKBhRNg4et?= =?us-ascii?Q?1n+vARQwpL0RvUEFKWE1jsNd3PDcrhdgIZ4V5pediZjYsYWaXpeofLYUMDGQ?= =?us-ascii?Q?QgcjEdtYvjDn6z1n4C/GwOggHQViogAD56yWc41fa2pYJPaYJEMjiDJ4qa6Z?= =?us-ascii?Q?Xh0ySv4nXP5d7tFc02BhuCyvFl9esUG9fVggm3JCpCNUwCJIO9IPAFXDdn1O?= =?us-ascii?Q?Blp3LzGRqQR57pOwkhS8nPXco6FStBeCTKFlz7tQ2O7yQc/lJaHTXHa4VWRz?= =?us-ascii?Q?JM/JWsx86aZ5YOEluovwTaPY8Lrr9ADXlYfry0HqbIKrq0E6SJIJBatm501O?= =?us-ascii?Q?LO/iK7qRcbPne3Ypsax5mf7f2d0kDi2wP3umKAatUd7mfFx/t2BYZ5T5SWqX?= =?us-ascii?Q?f3Ou7C9E+yfeoqtoBPB4LXmPJxuFgRX6/bxmBk3jCUnISiPzM8F105OQYDOd?= =?us-ascii?Q?APMk6y+79AUok84mfkcfKquR1yWlGjUdr/amNJ7/qDMpT/lefgnntnHYx2/Q?= =?us-ascii?Q?hvziFqAUl3WzOpVsHltZhxAqrf3J9byJ2aJ8VZEFWC+r1acHTENg/A9Lgdt8?= =?us-ascii?Q?43hiXK+MjAe4cUf5fEWF7R/UEIo6ktcyvBzuaeKAo/U8pc+18FaQfXe2Myo7?= =?us-ascii?Q?x+H/i8cROSHymaCG1kjA97p6LN6FCP4N4PPKj7ciR4fnT7Um0fkCSFrGi4uf?= =?us-ascii?Q?0DNrGNAjGxAAeTrNHHla0bQ+u/YA8RiersNtQik704cXSF0axwYfzcpIJnHI?= =?us-ascii?Q?AluzEsaaDqnKT20RPEBiztA8IGOiLT16GjrXFL99yeipo31rQ2mPz/UlNd2h?= =?us-ascii?Q?Aw=3D=3D?= X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 80b0418f-a823-4d6c-96d3-08dca2ced924 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: PH8PR11MB8107.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2024 00:00:47.0897 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 46c98d88-e344-4ed4-8496-4ed7712e255d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: AT5/YMh0Gq+cqjV0Stcd4Ie+5uBwmndF9vKc7YJis4S6KBe+XmpygRF6vsbCrQyluQ5Si7S0elVHO8nS7x/xNMo+M01Dxp4GxgJr2VRTIYg= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA2PR11MB5052 X-OriginatorOrg: intel.com Jakub Kicinski wrote: [..] > Would it help if we speak of "open forums" instead of mailing list? > I think LPC including "hallway track" fall squarely under "conducted > in a manner typical for the larger subsystem." Here's slightly edited > version: > > Open development > ---------------- > > Discussions about user reported issues, and development of new code > should be conducted in a manner typical for the larger subsystem. > It is common for development within a single company to be conducted > behind closed doors. However, development and discussions initiated > by community members must not be redirected from public to closed forums > or to private email conversations. Reasonable exceptions to this guidance > include discussions about security related issues. > > > The only issues I see with such talks is that the work when > > co-authored should be properly marked as such and that > > reviewews/acks taken behind doors don't have the same meaning > > as an upstream review, as they may be due to some internal > > formalities. > > > > IMO, the best would instead to give a positive message. E. g. > > something like: > > > > Maintainers must encourage discussions and reviews to happen > > at public mailing lists, avoiding whenever possible to have > > internal discussions. > > That's not the message, tho. If someone emails a company privately > that's fine. If company has internal processes for its development - > also fine (as explicitly called out). I'm trying to set the baseline, > not describe the ideal world. > > I am specifically calling out that if someone submits a patch, or > reports a regression the correct response is to review it on the list. > Like a normal person. > Not reply privately that "it's on the company roadmap, just wait" :| > Or reply with a patch company has "forgotten to upstream".. > > Maybe it's a cultural thing, but to me this is where the relentless > positivity is counter-productive. I don't want to encourage people > to be angles. I want them not to do the shitty thing. > To be honest I am lost trying to understand who the audience is and what the actionable takeaway is from the guidance. It sounds like you are trying to educate drive-by submitters to push back against requests to take issues off the list. I think that's a reasonable education campaign, but doesn't that kind of "submitter bill-of-rights" note belong in Documentation/admin-guide/reporting-{issues,regressions}.rst as explicit "how to work your issue upstream" guidance?