From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23917C433FE for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2022 08:53:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S231179AbiI3IxW (ORCPT ); Fri, 30 Sep 2022 04:53:22 -0400 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:35584 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S229566AbiI3IxT (ORCPT ); Fri, 30 Sep 2022 04:53:19 -0400 Received: from mout-xforward.gmx.net (mout-xforward.gmx.net [82.165.159.41]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACDE1166F3E; Fri, 30 Sep 2022 01:53:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1664527981; bh=UKcFQEl9YGsBq1PFrGhUlEsNLLsh4x0iNQsYbO3vRh8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=MjJWG7/UnIL7Gg/ohoEQKqreNi6BnepL36kKbAdAtv89CFGhWDaooVdoWTBHLFamH FoqEwf2Oa0wYyQbjYJrKP6vu8lDtV1bPKx4q0zFp/mf9WZCIrdl3/+ldVzfC7sdCeF 1Fm4M3qOIs36vMytZ84Da4/OwoY3mvaNOMWtzOfQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [10.5.110.31] ([143.244.37.65]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.174]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MNt0C-1otfHg4BYG-00OJRG; Fri, 30 Sep 2022 10:53:01 +0200 Message-ID: <4dda937d-a295-faba-196f-56af3659fb08@gmx.com> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2022 08:52:56 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.3.1 Subject: Re: Planned changes for bugzilla.kernel.org to reduce the "Bugzilla blues" To: James Bottomley , Thorsten Leemhuis , Konstantin Ryabitsev Cc: workflows@vger.kernel.org, LKML , Greg KH , Linus Torvalds , "regressions@lists.linux.dev" , ksummit@lists.linux.dev References: <05d149a0-e3de-8b09-ecc0-3ea73e080be3@leemhuis.info> <93a37d72-9a88-2eec-5125-9db3d67f5b65@gmx.com> <238f5350125e618c323f42e3885b5ff887241ae0.camel@HansenPartnership.com> From: "Artem S. Tashkinov" In-Reply-To: <238f5350125e618c323f42e3885b5ff887241ae0.camel@HansenPartnership.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:jYpz/bmNn8jnB1nUQJgBZSc3mh/yf1seHK/m19kNIESJMHwLUPK zgyzzYYSIy2DbbK2tToKAXq/l8HH3pIFh+/arLqNHT4GoUcYiDyQaKX+B6iZqAYrsLqdQ1+ EDcxyZcg3xw2CsLzTF/tK78GJKuNLxYC+dnqdH2jH3uy3VQ09C3vHUbTbF5l+2M3zgGFkUd WcuAp34skeQF8TfRgOcPA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: junk:10;V03:K0:IYI/uC7CvXA=:LgE3CX+V7ZGzmk9n2A5vYFVa v6Dz4ERep1D78JhxLnBYlrYUKdYtByqT5blnJiGN4OACbpTbBA5haWLFaTjRTdlTCebJmTG2e p/gk4etXapHpjBe71/spq9qM589M8n8xYqeRYxPK80Ekm0snF4xN6D7ovAwsmYg5ub6NjAEnz N6RQCzqE1JqtykSqqrAeH1/no0WL1y2XviDWipazF1Z/Nn1ChRx0jDXtAunmPRot3Ae50evOx H7VqjhgTW5T2H1meZ9PSBqJUx9fA0SFPaRM+JPybtCC8ZWBVEAJP9YKwEklJOXKHho8fJXifZ PY2QYkzoB9MNf2AfDKWjy+dBKi9umF76ZPpBPvmA7YZf+uBSu++K45oEvtrPu/0GfXkSXKVWd FxNLt3zc5FHZDqRiD+4Q6+mcYjHNla15thUIj11+wUWxAouRYgpcn6ZQUJJ1/GAoBfGJolOkz AuAD9q8bpsbWD2w1hrjcMOZZKV3WaI2NO3hTMaiS+/95z+PXzu5VK3yIlfqQPO1Gg0QXutHp7 NiIz4aXq1hFWkeBtfrivkXZw6Q9qZ57W7BWq6gXm8yZmZGP8Q+63JeQmmq6Ap+FnHpO/TRqLP 8JtucRUr99Yn8XSPF1QPwD8LH2FFBST6EZG4gZr5i2w1KB4PD/rj97t2gLS1nmYMLWaPPN8cu bZoOtEmaNDsAt4WDbwfZ7dgpO5LtBezIPfoRvGnYT8CShD3C4H9Up0aQz4NqqntFytRuANtAL 8eC4rcvpdGMSKM1d3qkZeY1fY+Hb7bgqjcNhEHaWpfXbkqfzfryLbTYLVWsc5VRx1QT3vyjTN z5Jhhm1DMcMEnYGQSnPfSmhe6h9s/31yMP8TVsMi1R1BteF60lOetsZNZl2MkIJDEsDEJxdY+ i2j69VY0SyjlmbvyyDsfusmbsm710sYRQiVU+0C3epWM94WVLAcxQ1wafmwk9Xv7yNOX23ibk Pw/YWbbjOV4Hn6y2dRo7Z+RPQ0tVGlfdVbzJGlQheIoX/z3tAesOSJngNFpjneZBNoQFfh0S5 gtHvH4Lhd6Wa5x1UvNWcISH7K3P5xxCAl44VAE6nC5D/J4I3X99aIAKEoebCTsJ/us0aUDM+5 i1FucA19XqehCc2SE+kLmA3Sm7MVD7r+M38AzWoOKI64yzjXXGk15FlPc0zuyOC6vGEI4eY4J xj3caR8JeVBuswvfSjuy1VwQell+w4SOiGgzBfWjGf6BHg== Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: workflows@vger.kernel.org On 9/29/22 15:26, James Bottomley wrote: > On Thu, 2022-09-29 at 12:22 +0000, Artem S. Tashkinov wrote: >> Let me be brutally honest here, if you're working on the kernel, >> specially for a large company such as e.g. Intel, you're _expected_ >> to address the issues which are related to the kernel component[s] >> you're maintaining/developing otherwise it's not "development" it's >> "I'm dumping my code because my employer pays me to do that". That >> also means you're expected to address bug reports. >> >> It's correct I've tried to help people with bug reports posted on >> bugzilla.kernel.org but it's a tough task considering that absolute >> most kernel developers are not signed up, thus most bug reports are >> never seen by respective developers. > > The never seen/never responded to metric is rather bogus. The sad fact > is that a lot of bug reports aren't actionable, meaning the reporter > can't give a reproducer and also can't easily test patches sometimes > by luck the maintainers can work out what the issue is but a lot of the > time they have no idea. Then there are ton's of bug reports with > responses like "I think xxx commit fixes your problem, can you test it" > for which the conversation dies there. There's also the thundering > herd problem: some bugs get reported by many different people (as > different bug reports) but usually the subsystem only engages with one > to fix the issue. In theory bugzilla can mark the latter as dups, but > that requires someone to spend an enormous amount of time on evaluation > and admin. Not only that, many bug reporters simply report something only not to ever follow up - you ask them for additional information and it looks like as if they don't receive emails from bugzilla or don't understand English despite their report being in English. > > That's not to say we can't improve our process, it's just to set > expectations that we're never going to approach anywhere near a perfect > bug process. Most of the improvements that worked so far involve > having someone coach bug reporters through the process of either > testing patches or reproducing the problem in a more generic > environment ... which I think most people would agree can't really fall > wholly on maintainers. Bug reporting is an intricate process which requires certain experience and skills and it's far outside the scope of this conversation. I still absolutely prefer Bugzilla or a similar bug tracker to stay. There has to be a place where all the bug reports are congregated together in an easy to search for form. Someone has proposed alternatives but I know nothing about them. What I'm looking forward to from a new bug tracker: * An ability to CC anyone and everyone * Preferably an email interface since some developers just love replying to emails instead of opening a website * Categories representing major kernel components To be honest it feels like refreshing Bugzilla is a lot more easier than migrating to something new. If I'm given access to it, I could certainly try to do that. It's been mentioned that the product is "dead" and "unmaintained" but that's not what I see on bugzilla.mozilla.org - it has become extremely powerful. Maybe it's not even Bugzilla but something totally new which looks like bugzilla. Other major projects continue to use Bugzilla seemingly without big problems: * KDE ( https://bugs.kde.org/ ) * GCC ( https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/ ) * Wine ( https://bugs.winehq.org/ ) It feels to me we just need a dedicated Bugzilla maintainer. That's it. I could probably do it. Best regards, Artem