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Howlett" To: David Hildenbrand Cc: Yafang Shao , akpm@linux-foundation.org, ziy@nvidia.com, baolin.wang@linux.alibaba.com, lorenzo.stoakes@oracle.com, npache@redhat.com, ryan.roberts@arm.com, dev.jain@arm.com, hannes@cmpxchg.org, usamaarif642@gmail.com, gutierrez.asier@huawei-partners.com, willy@infradead.org, ast@kernel.org, daniel@iogearbox.net, andrii@kernel.org, bpf@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v2 0/5] mm, bpf: BPF based THP adjustment Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: "Liam R. 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U2FsdGVkX18xdk0wmyf9v4baP8J4tJdSFkMf/deRzE2Gls7AwLzslb/NSJ1rjhqK8N/aAmx2u2a0ebU6NJUnjb5/l0umNPCRZOosg6/fyMoOVsiPoNXbidr3Fh1kGi2iMVPTQDRkStZAG/Ls4PThkdQ+dGqXW3nw4uayJ9H403lnaYVKsxrAsx3fe+Rpf5mzv6sWrQx5QDkqWGJOKP3jPmK3CTF5pYEDfDdHVxCSSKGdD7fgK5d1hbbzuV2f1Hs5OtfXYiyZxO9Py/Fk29UU8/7T4D034QHms81CArK+4bGBkZUzz9AfrL1fSz7TsDwBG7ve/7NdGxFZ+C0BguibBHUsYEbGW+alXg8D0RyFFEN40LpBHNcWuGQGa6RpYVyDIALf5agJHSN8nBtyP1yGjhY+SNfHIgQW2InvMXTVw+pAD0TyN0sONyjkQuGiLvMOMe5+3NOYfmGJzjD2PzYENLq5Nzh4bLbmVLp70Fbv/m5BHsfTdbbrRtjrstkJNlQwyDCn9b1wGAUfXKWe47q9DVCzG+5xsjcghtSLdGYlF1B2/RwI1CJs4vSiCPU1nvYp1eACyflSEWbQvlUagPB43uxvO6Q3khYTYQj+s+3YUVk5IcfYlRQgjO4RvZueECT4/L9T6IU1nxstf13KvMEaSzH2ceImenhXxfpm5dW+lZzwtnxIRH1kn9PYVJw7K/dkoXRErrXA410zJ38Rv5wsG5JOdyusjgNKT9tJl8fqy5iOS3lNvmexSt5u5VkwSjqDBumEubiR35qo6Jdv0+yQS8oZQzRk/UOYKyOkcnv9yH0IAH98lhcaQfN8GI7yjxbmkfK6poG13tytTeL9KryLMcDNTDJN2OSmXXEfbG7ft3NIOay6RX3Zojset1l/biKTt7D2aXdaQtxystrwBcWbzIiAF0lxTJSxnLZZ7lDum7giZtHNpcGeA84s4KQibELxcNcLtNVYkJ12QyTnp/o lKUkFcDl 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 X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.2.4 Sender: owner-linux-mm@kvack.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: owner-majordomo@kvack.org List-ID: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: * David Hildenbrand [250526 06:49]: > On 26.05.25 11:37, Yafang Shao wrote: > > On Mon, May 26, 2025 at 4:14=E2=80=AFPM David Hildenbrand wrote: > > >=20 > > > > Hi all, > > > >=20 > > > > Let=E2=80=99s summarize the current state of the discussion and ide= ntify how > > > > to move forward. > > > >=20 > > > > - Global-Only Control is Not Viable > > > > We all seem to agree that a global-only control for THP is unwise. = In > > > > practice, some workloads benefit from THP while others do not, so a > > > > one-size-fits-all approach doesn=E2=80=99t work. > > > >=20 > > > > - Should We Use "Always" or "Madvise"? > > > > I suspect no one would choose 'always' in its current state. ;) > > >=20 > > > IIRC, RHEL9 has the default set to "always" for a long time. > >=20 > > good to know. > >=20 > > >=20 > > > I guess it really depends on how different the workloads are that you > > > are running on the same machine. > >=20 > > Correct. If we want to enable THP for specific workloads without > > modifying the kernel, we must isolate them on dedicated servers. > > However, this approach wastes resources and is not an acceptable > > solution. > >=20 > > >=20 > > > > Both Lorenzo and David propose relying on the madvise mode. Howev= er,> > > > since madvise is an unprivileged userspace mechanism, any user can > > > > freely adjust their THP policy. This makes fine-grained control > > > > impossible without breaking userspace compatibility=E2=80=94an unde= sirable > > > > tradeoff. > > >=20 > > > If required, we could look into a "sealing" mechanism, that would > > > essentially lock modification attempts performed by the process (i.e.= , > > > MADV_HUGEPAGE). > >=20 > > If we don=E2=80=99t introduce a new THP mode and instead rely solely on > > madvise, the "sealing" mechanism could either violate the intended > > semantics of madvise(), or simply break madvise() entirely, right? >=20 > We would have to be a bit careful, yes. >=20 > Errors from MADV_HUGEPAGE/MADV_NOHUGEPAGE are often ignored, because thes= e > options also fail with -EINVAL on kernels without THP support. >=20 > Ignoring MADV_NOHUGEPAGE can be problematic with userfaultfd. >=20 > What you likely really want to do is seal when you configured > MADV_NOHUGEPAGE to be the default, and fail MADV_HUGEPAGE later. I think this works. Take the example from a previous thread where containers are differentiated by allowing or not allowing THP. If you set a container MADV_HOHUGEPAGE (or whatever flag we used for the same meaning), then if a library uses that call and it fails do we want to report it as a failure? I would reason that the library shouldn't hard fail if its unable to use THP, so it's okay to return the failure. Alternatively, if it is a hard requirement, then that container shouldn't be allowed to continue in such a state and should verify the return. (If this is even a possibility?) >=20 > > >=20 > > > The could be added on top of the current proposals that are flying > > > around, and could be done e.g., per-process. > >=20 > > How about introducing a dedicated "process" mode? This would allow > > each process to use different THP modes=E2=80=94some in "always," other= s in > > "madvise," and the rest in "never." Future THP modes could also be > > added to this framework. >=20 > We have to be really careful about not creating even more mess with more > modes. Yes, and clarity would depend on the mode name, imo. Never meaning never, for example. So we'd need an answer to David's question below before agreeing on "process". If it survives across fork and exec calls, is it really a "process" setting? I believe you are seeing it as "setting default" really doesn't mean setting a default if you cannot overwrite it, and if you can overwrite the "default" then it's not going to work for all use cases. >=20 > How would that design look like in detail (how would we set it per proces= s > etc?)? >=20 > --=20 > Cheers, >=20 > David / dhildenb >=20