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Howlett" To: Nikita Kalyazin Cc: Lorenzo Stoakes , Suren Baghdasaryan , Peter Xu , linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Vlastimil Babka , Muchun Song , Mike Rapoport , Hugh Dickins , Andrew Morton , James Houghton , Michal Hocko , David Hildenbrand , Andrea Arcangeli , Oscar Salvador , Axel Rasmussen , Ujwal Kundur Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 1/4] mm: Introduce vm_uffd_ops API Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: "Liam R. 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 +iUlvtOa 9uylqGyoBf3G/o4/EnPSo8Iz4emex1K284TTnCv+18AFKq4zY2PGrxBwUsTFpsj+giF6X++kZ86P4yJP4S3cgDxQh+vJaULRS+G7iJ4ROyecuI1gNzAlQBjYUtPRUWkjmuL0/UgrXZJrQ8Dx/N9SugHHjYltZfeIMv6lI X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.2.4 Sender: owner-linux-mm@kvack.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: owner-majordomo@kvack.org List-ID: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: * Nikita Kalyazin [250702 13:08]: >=20 >=20 > On 02/07/2025 16:56, Lorenzo Stoakes wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 01, 2025 at 10:04:28AM -0700, Suren Baghdasaryan wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 3:16=E2=80=AFAM Lorenzo Stoakes > > > wrote: > > > > This feels like you're trying to put mm functionality outside of mm= ? > > >=20 > > > To second that, two things stick out for me here: > > > 1. uffd_copy and uffd_get_folio seem to be at different abstraction > > > levels. uffd_copy is almost the entire copy operation for VM_SHARED > > > VMAs while uffd_get_folio is a small part of the continue operation. > > > 2. shmem_mfill_atomic_pte which becomes uffd_copy for shmem in the > > > last patch is quite a complex function which itself calls some IMO > > > pretty internal functions like mfill_atomic_install_pte(). Expecting > > > modules to implement such functionality seems like a stretch to me bu= t > > > maybe this is for some specialized modules which are written by mm > > > experts only? > >=20 > > To echo what Liam said - I don't think we can truly rely on expertise h= ere > > (we make enough mistakes in core mm for that to be a dubious propositio= n > > even tere :) and even if experts were involved, having core mm > > functionality outside of core mm carries significant risk - we are > > constantly changing things, including assumptions around sensitive topi= cs > > such as locking (think VMA locking) - having code elsewhere significant= ly > > increases the risk of missing things. > >=20 > > I am also absolutely, to be frank, not going to accept us EXPORT()'ing > > anything core. > >=20 > > Page table manipulation really must rely in core mm and arch code only,= it > > is easily some of the most subtle, confusing and dangerous code in mm (= I > > have spent subtantial hours banging my head against it recently), and a= gain > > - subject to constant change. > >=20 > > But to come back to Liam's comments and to reiterate what I was referri= ng > > to earlier, even permitting drivers to have access to VMAs is _highly_ > > problematic and has resulted in very real bugs and subtle issues that t= ook > > many hours, much stress + gnashing of teeth to adress. >=20 > The main target of this change is the implementation of UFFD for > KVM/guest_memfd (examples: [1], [2]) to avoid bringing KVM-specific code > into the mm codebase. We usually mean KVM by the "drivers" in this conte= xt, > and it is already somewhat "knowledgeable" of the mm. I don't think ther= e > are existing use cases for other drivers to implement this at the moment. >=20 > Although I can't see new exports in this series, there is now a way to li= mit > exports to particular modules [3]. Would it help if we only do it for KV= M > initially (if/when actually needed)? >=20 > [1] > https://lore.kernel.org/all/114133f5-0282-463d-9d65-3143aa658806@amazon.c= om/ > [2] > https://lore.kernel.org/all/7666ee96-6f09-4dc1-8cb2-002a2d2a29cf@amazon.c= om/ > [3] https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/masahiroy/linux-kbuil= d.git/commit/?h=3Dkbuild&id=3D707f853d7fa3ce323a6875487890c213e34d81a0 >=20 That's because the entry point is from a function pointer, so [3] won't help at all. It is recreating the situation that existed for the vma through the vm_ops in mmap, but for uffd. And at a lower level (page tables). I do no= t want to relive that experience. We are not doing this. It is for the benefit of everyone that we are not doing this. We need to find another way. Regards, Liam