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Howlett" To: David Hildenbrand , Yafang Shao , akpm@linux-foundation.org, ziy@nvidia.com, baolin.wang@linux.alibaba.com, lorenzo.stoakes@oracle.com, npache@redhat.com, ryan.roberts@arm.com, dev.jain@arm.com, hannes@cmpxchg.org, usamaarif642@gmail.com, gutierrez.asier@huawei-partners.com, willy@infradead.org, ast@kernel.org, daniel@iogearbox.net, andrii@kernel.org, bpf@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v2 0/5] mm, bpf: BPF based THP adjustment Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: "Liam R. 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 bwnEAtr7 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Howlett [250526 10:54]: > * David Hildenbrand [250526 06:49]: > > On 26.05.25 11:37, Yafang Shao wrote: > > > On Mon, May 26, 2025 at 4:14=E2=80=AFPM David Hildenbrand wrote: > > > >=20 > > > > > Hi all, > > > > >=20 > > > > > Let=E2=80=99s summarize the current state of the discussion and i= dentify how > > > > > to move forward. > > > > >=20 > > > > > - Global-Only Control is Not Viable > > > > > We all seem to agree that a global-only control for THP is unwise= . In > > > > > practice, some workloads benefit from THP while others do not, so= a > > > > > one-size-fits-all approach doesn=E2=80=99t work. > > > > >=20 > > > > > - Should We Use "Always" or "Madvise"? > > > > > I suspect no one would choose 'always' in its current state. ;) > > > >=20 > > > > IIRC, RHEL9 has the default set to "always" for a long time. > > >=20 > > > good to know. > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > I guess it really depends on how different the workloads are that y= ou > > > > are running on the same machine. > > >=20 > > > Correct. If we want to enable THP for specific workloads without > > > modifying the kernel, we must isolate them on dedicated servers. > > > However, this approach wastes resources and is not an acceptable > > > solution. > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > > Both Lorenzo and David propose relying on the madvise mode. How= ever,> > > > > since madvise is an unprivileged userspace mechanism, any user can > > > > > freely adjust their THP policy. This makes fine-grained control > > > > > impossible without breaking userspace compatibility=E2=80=94an un= desirable > > > > > tradeoff. > > > >=20 > > > > If required, we could look into a "sealing" mechanism, that would > > > > essentially lock modification attempts performed by the process (i.= e., > > > > MADV_HUGEPAGE). > > >=20 > > > If we don=E2=80=99t introduce a new THP mode and instead rely solely = on > > > madvise, the "sealing" mechanism could either violate the intended > > > semantics of madvise(), or simply break madvise() entirely, right? > >=20 > > We would have to be a bit careful, yes. > >=20 > > Errors from MADV_HUGEPAGE/MADV_NOHUGEPAGE are often ignored, because th= ese > > options also fail with -EINVAL on kernels without THP support. > >=20 > > Ignoring MADV_NOHUGEPAGE can be problematic with userfaultfd. > >=20 > > What you likely really want to do is seal when you configured > > MADV_NOHUGEPAGE to be the default, and fail MADV_HUGEPAGE later. I am also not entirely sure how sealing a non-existing vma would work. We'd have to seal the default flags, but sealing is one way and this surely shouldn't be one way? >=20 > I think this works. Take the example from a previous thread where > containers are differentiated by allowing or not allowing THP. If you > set a container MADV_HOHUGEPAGE (or whatever flag we used for the same > meaning), then if a library uses that call and it fails do we want to > report it as a failure? I would reason that the library shouldn't hard > fail if its unable to use THP, so it's okay to return the failure. >=20 > Alternatively, if it is a hard requirement, then that container > shouldn't be allowed to continue in such a state and should verify the > return. (If this is even a possibility?) >=20 > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > The could be added on top of the current proposals that are flying > > > > around, and could be done e.g., per-process. > > >=20 > > > How about introducing a dedicated "process" mode? This would allow > > > each process to use different THP modes=E2=80=94some in "always," oth= ers in > > > "madvise," and the rest in "never." Future THP modes could also be > > > added to this framework. > >=20 > > We have to be really careful about not creating even more mess with mor= e > > modes. >=20 > Yes, and clarity would depend on the mode name, imo. Never meaning > never, for example. >=20 > So we'd need an answer to David's question below before agreeing on > "process". If it survives across fork and exec calls, is it really a > "process" setting? >=20 > I believe you are seeing it as "setting default" really doesn't mean > setting a default if you cannot overwrite it, and if you can overwrite > the "default" then it's not going to work for all use cases. >=20 > >=20 > > How would that design look like in detail (how would we set it per proc= ess > > etc?)? > >=20 > > --=20 > > Cheers, > >=20 > > David / dhildenb > >=20