Re:

Re:

[Joseph A Knapka]

Hi Gavin,

[Forwarded to linux-mm, since those guys will be able to
 answer your questions much more completely. Maybe someone
 has already solved your problem.]

Gavin Dolling wrote:
> 
> Your VM page has helped me immensely. I'm after so advice though about the
> following. No problem if you are too busy, etc. your site has already helped
> me a great deal so just hit that delete key now ...
> 
> I have an embedded linux system running out of 8M of RAM. It has no backing
> store and uses a RAM disk as its FS. It boots from a flash chip - at boot
> time things are uncompressed into RAM. Running an MTD type system with a
> flash FS is not an option.
> 
> Memory is very tight and it is unfortunate that the binaries effectively
> appear twice in memory. They are in the RAM FS in full and also get paged
> into memory. There is a lot of paging going on which I believe is drowning
> the system.
> 
> We have no swap file (that would obviously be stupid) but a large number of
> buffers (i.e. a lot of dirty pages). The application is networking stuff so
> it is supposed to perform at line rate - the paging appears to be preventing
> this.
> 
> What I wish to do is to page the user space binaries into the page cache,
> mark them so they are never evicted. Delete them from the RAMFS and recover
> the memory. This should be the most optimum way of running the system - in
> terms of memory usage anyway.
> 
> I am planning to hack filemap.c. Going to use page_cache_read on each binary
> and then remove from RAM FS. If the page is not in use I will have to make
> sure that deleting the file does not result in the page being evicted.
> Basically some more hacking required. I am also concerned about the inode
> associated with the page, this is going to cause me pain I think?
> 
> I am going to try this on my PC first. Going to try and force 'cat' to be
> fully paged in and then rename it. I should still be able to use cat at the
> command line.

I don't think this will work as a test case. The address_space mappings
are based on inode identity, and since you won't actually have
a "cat" program on your filesystem, the inode won't be found, so
the kernel will not have a way of knowing that the cached pages
are the right ones. You'd have to leave at least enough of the
filesystem intact for the kernel to be able to map the program
name to the correct inode. You might solve this by pinning the
inode buffers in main memory before reclaiming the RAMFS pages,
but that's pure speculation on my part.

> So basically:
> 
> a) Is this feasible?

See below.

> b) When I delete the binary can I prevent it from being evicted from the
> page cache?
> (I note with interest that if I mv my /usr/bin/emacs whilst emacs is running
>       e.g.   $ emacs &; mv /usr/bin/emacs /usr/bin/emacs2
> it allows me to do it and what's more nothing bad happens. This tells me I
> do not understand enough of what is going on - I would have expected this to
> fail in some manner).

The disk inode for a moved or deleted file (and the file's disk
blocks) don't get freed until all references to the inode are
gone. If the kernel has the file open (eg due to mmap()),
the file can still be used for paging until it's unmapped
by all the processes that are using it. (This is another
reason your test case above might be misleading.)

> c) I must have to leave something in the RAMFS such that the instance of the
> binary still exists even if not its whole content.
> 
> d) Am I insane to try this? (Why would be more useful than just a yes ;-)  )

I don't know. This is a deeper hack than any I've contemplated.
However, I'm tempted to say that it would be easier to figure
out a way to directly add the RAMFS pages to the page cache,
and thus use a single page simultaneously as a cache page and
an FS page. I don't know how hard that's going to be, but I
think it might be easier than trying to yank the FS out from
under an in-use mapping.

Cheers,

-- Joe
# "You know how many remote castles there are along the
#  gorges? You can't MOVE for remote castles!" - Lu Tze re. Uberwald
# Linux MM docs:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jknapka/linux-mm/vmoutline.html
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To unsubscribe, send a message with 'unsubscribe linux-mm' in
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see: http://www.linux-mm.org/

Re: redundant RAMFS and cache pages on embedded system

[Joseph A Knapka]

(Sorry, just realized I should have supplied a useful
subject line on my previous message.)

Joseph A Knapka wrote:
> 
> Hi Gavin,
> 
> [Forwarded to linux-mm, since those guys will be able to
>  answer your questions much more completely. Maybe someone
>  has already solved your problem.]
> 
> Gavin Dolling wrote:
> >
> > Your VM page has helped me immensely. I'm after so advice though about the
> > following. No problem if you are too busy, etc. your site has already helped
> > me a great deal so just hit that delete key now ...
> >
> > I have an embedded linux system running out of 8M of RAM. It has no backing
> > store and uses a RAM disk as its FS. It boots from a flash chip - at boot
> > time things are uncompressed into RAM. Running an MTD type system with a
> > flash FS is not an option.
> >
> > Memory is very tight and it is unfortunate that the binaries effectively
> > appear twice in memory. They are in the RAM FS in full and also get paged
> > into memory. There is a lot of paging going on which I believe is drowning
> > the system.
> >
> > We have no swap file (that would obviously be stupid) but a large number of
> > buffers (i.e. a lot of dirty pages). The application is networking stuff so
> > it is supposed to perform at line rate - the paging appears to be preventing
> > this.
> >
> > What I wish to do is to page the user space binaries into the page cache,
> > mark them so they are never evicted. Delete them from the RAMFS and recover
> > the memory. This should be the most optimum way of running the system - in
> > terms of memory usage anyway.
> >
> > I am planning to hack filemap.c. Going to use page_cache_read on each binary
> > and then remove from RAM FS. If the page is not in use I will have to make
> > sure that deleting the file does not result in the page being evicted.
> > Basically some more hacking required. I am also concerned about the inode
> > associated with the page, this is going to cause me pain I think?
> >
> > I am going to try this on my PC first. Going to try and force 'cat' to be
> > fully paged in and then rename it. I should still be able to use cat at the
> > command line.
> 
> I don't think this will work as a test case. The address_space mappings
> are based on inode identity, and since you won't actually have
> a "cat" program on your filesystem, the inode won't be found, so
> the kernel will not have a way of knowing that the cached pages
> are the right ones. You'd have to leave at least enough of the
> filesystem intact for the kernel to be able to map the program
> name to the correct inode. You might solve this by pinning the
> inode buffers in main memory before reclaiming the RAMFS pages,
> but that's pure speculation on my part.
> 
> > So basically:
> >
> > a) Is this feasible?
> 
> See below.
> 
> > b) When I delete the binary can I prevent it from being evicted from the
> > page cache?
> > (I note with interest that if I mv my /usr/bin/emacs whilst emacs is running
> >       e.g.   $ emacs &; mv /usr/bin/emacs /usr/bin/emacs2
> > it allows me to do it and what's more nothing bad happens. This tells me I
> > do not understand enough of what is going on - I would have expected this to
> > fail in some manner).
> 
> The disk inode for a moved or deleted file (and the file's disk
> blocks) don't get freed until all references to the inode are
> gone. If the kernel has the file open (eg due to mmap()),
> the file can still be used for paging until it's unmapped
> by all the processes that are using it. (This is another
> reason your test case above might be misleading.)
> 
> > c) I must have to leave something in the RAMFS such that the instance of the
> > binary still exists even if not its whole content.
> >
> > d) Am I insane to try this? (Why would be more useful than just a yes ;-)  )
> 
> I don't know. This is a deeper hack than any I've contemplated.
> However, I'm tempted to say that it would be easier to figure
> out a way to directly add the RAMFS pages to the page cache,
> and thus use a single page simultaneously as a cache page and
> an FS page. I don't know how hard that's going to be, but I
> think it might be easier than trying to yank the FS out from
> under an in-use mapping.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> -- Joe
> # "You know how many remote castles there are along the
> #  gorges? You can't MOVE for remote castles!" - Lu Tze re. Uberwald
> # Linux MM docs:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~jknapka/linux-mm/vmoutline.html

-- 
# Replace the pink stuff with net to reply.
# "You know how many remote castles there are along the
#  gorges? You can't MOVE for remote castles!" - Lu Tze re. Uberwald
# Linux MM docs:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jknapka/linux-mm/vmoutline.html
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the body to majordomo@kvack.org.  For more info on Linux MM,
see: http://www.linux-mm.org/

Re: redundant RAMFS and cache pages on embedded system

[Eric W. Biederman]

Joseph A Knapka <jknapka@earthlink.net> writes:

> (Sorry, just realized I should have supplied a useful
> subject line on my previous message.)
> 
> Joseph A Knapka wrote:
> > Gavin Dolling wrote:
> > >
> > > Your VM page has helped me immensely. I'm after so advice though about the
> > > following. No problem if you are too busy, etc. your site has already helped
> 
> > > me a great deal so just hit that delete key now ...
> > >
> > > I have an embedded linux system running out of 8M of RAM. It has no backing
> > > store and uses a RAM disk as its FS. It boots from a flash chip - at boot
> > > time things are uncompressed into RAM. Running an MTD type system with a
> > > flash FS is not an option.
> > >
> > > Memory is very tight and it is unfortunate that the binaries effectively
> > > appear twice in memory. They are in the RAM FS in full and also get paged
> > > into memory. There is a lot of paging going on which I believe is drowning
> > > the system.

The simple solution is to use ramfs, not a ramdisk with a fs on it.  As
ramfs puts the pages directly in the page cache, so you don't get
double buffering.  Possibly tmpfs/shmfs is a better solution as it has
a few more features and can't really be removed from the kernel.

> > > We have no swap file (that would obviously be stupid) but a large number of
> > > buffers (i.e. a lot of dirty pages). The application is networking stuff so
> > > it is supposed to perform at line rate - the paging appears to be preventing
> 
> > > this.
> > >
> > > What I wish to do is to page the user space binaries into the page cache,
> > > mark them so they are never evicted. Delete them from the RAMFS and recover
> > > the memory. This should be the most optimum way of running the system - in
> > > terms of memory usage anyway.

This exactly what you get with ramfs, or shmfs.

> > > So basically:
> > >
> > > a) Is this feasible?

It is done.
> > 
> > > b) When I delete the binary can I prevent it from being evicted from the
> > > page cache?
Don't go there.

> > > d) Am I insane to try this? (Why would be more useful than just a yes ;-) )
Yes, it is done.
Just use uncompress into ramfs instead of a ramdisk.

Eric
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