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[2003:d8:2f02:7c00:e95e:dbc6:7ea8:d075]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-427a5ef4617sm125545885e9.41.2024.07.16.06.22.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jul 2024 06:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 15:22:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCH v5 0/6] add mTHP support for anonymous shmem To: Daniel Gomez , Ryan Roberts Cc: Baolin Wang , Matthew Wilcox , "akpm@linux-foundation.org" , "hughd@google.com" , "wangkefeng.wang@huawei.com" , "ying.huang@intel.com" , "21cnbao@gmail.com" <21cnbao@gmail.com>, "shy828301@gmail.com" , "ziy@nvidia.com" , "ioworker0@gmail.com" , Pankaj Raghav , "linux-mm@kvack.org" , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , Hugh Dickins References: <27beaa0e-697e-4e30-9ac6-5de22228aec1@redhat.com> <6d4c0191-18a9-4c8f-8814-d4775557383e@redhat.com> <32f04739-0cd0-4a9e-9419-c5a13c333c28@redhat.com> From: David Hildenbrand Autocrypt: addr=david@redhat.com; keydata= xsFNBFXLn5EBEAC+zYvAFJxCBY9Tr1xZgcESmxVNI/0ffzE/ZQOiHJl6mGkmA1R7/uUpiCjJ dBrn+lhhOYjjNefFQou6478faXE6o2AhmebqT4KiQoUQFV4R7y1KMEKoSyy8hQaK1umALTdL QZLQMzNE74ap+GDK0wnacPQFpcG1AE9RMq3aeErY5tujekBS32jfC/7AnH7I0v1v1TbbK3Gp XNeiN4QroO+5qaSr0ID2sz5jtBLRb15RMre27E1ImpaIv2Jw8NJgW0k/D1RyKCwaTsgRdwuK Kx/Y91XuSBdz0uOyU/S8kM1+ag0wvsGlpBVxRR/xw/E8M7TEwuCZQArqqTCmkG6HGcXFT0V9 PXFNNgV5jXMQRwU0O/ztJIQqsE5LsUomE//bLwzj9IVsaQpKDqW6TAPjcdBDPLHvriq7kGjt WhVhdl0qEYB8lkBEU7V2Yb+SYhmhpDrti9Fq1EsmhiHSkxJcGREoMK/63r9WLZYI3+4W2rAc UucZa4OT27U5ZISjNg3Ev0rxU5UH2/pT4wJCfxwocmqaRr6UYmrtZmND89X0KigoFD/XSeVv jwBRNjPAubK9/k5NoRrYqztM9W6sJqrH8+UWZ1Idd/DdmogJh0gNC0+N42Za9yBRURfIdKSb B3JfpUqcWwE7vUaYrHG1nw54pLUoPG6sAA7Mehl3nd4pZUALHwARAQABzSREYXZpZCBIaWxk ZW5icmFuZCA8ZGF2aWRAcmVkaGF0LmNvbT7CwZgEEwEIAEICGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQW AgMBAh4BAheAAhkBFiEEG9nKrXNcTDpGDfzKTd4Q9wD/g1oFAl8Ox4kFCRKpKXgACgkQTd4Q 9wD/g1oHcA//a6Tj7SBNjFNM1iNhWUo1lxAja0lpSodSnB2g4FCZ4R61SBR4l/psBL73xktp rDHrx4aSpwkRP6Epu6mLvhlfjmkRG4OynJ5HG1gfv7RJJfnUdUM1z5kdS8JBrOhMJS2c/gPf wv1TGRq2XdMPnfY2o0CxRqpcLkx4vBODvJGl2mQyJF/gPepdDfcT8/PY9BJ7FL6Hrq1gnAo4 3Iv9qV0JiT2wmZciNyYQhmA1V6dyTRiQ4YAc31zOo2IM+xisPzeSHgw3ONY/XhYvfZ9r7W1l pNQdc2G+o4Di9NPFHQQhDw3YTRR1opJaTlRDzxYxzU6ZnUUBghxt9cwUWTpfCktkMZiPSDGd KgQBjnweV2jw9UOTxjb4LXqDjmSNkjDdQUOU69jGMUXgihvo4zhYcMX8F5gWdRtMR7DzW/YE BgVcyxNkMIXoY1aYj6npHYiNQesQlqjU6azjbH70/SXKM5tNRplgW8TNprMDuntdvV9wNkFs 9TyM02V5aWxFfI42+aivc4KEw69SE9KXwC7FSf5wXzuTot97N9Phj/Z3+jx443jo2NR34XgF 89cct7wJMjOF7bBefo0fPPZQuIma0Zym71cP61OP/i11ahNye6HGKfxGCOcs5wW9kRQEk8P9 M/k2wt3mt/fCQnuP/mWutNPt95w9wSsUyATLmtNrwccz63XOwU0EVcufkQEQAOfX3n0g0fZz Bgm/S2zF/kxQKCEKP8ID+Vz8sy2GpDvveBq4H2Y34XWsT1zLJdvqPI4af4ZSMxuerWjXbVWb T6d4odQIG0fKx4F8NccDqbgHeZRNajXeeJ3R7gAzvWvQNLz4piHrO/B4tf8svmRBL0ZB5P5A 2uhdwLU3NZuK22zpNn4is87BPWF8HhY0L5fafgDMOqnf4guJVJPYNPhUFzXUbPqOKOkL8ojk CXxkOFHAbjstSK5Ca3fKquY3rdX3DNo+EL7FvAiw1mUtS+5GeYE+RMnDCsVFm/C7kY8c2d0G NWkB9pJM5+mnIoFNxy7YBcldYATVeOHoY4LyaUWNnAvFYWp08dHWfZo9WCiJMuTfgtH9tc75 7QanMVdPt6fDK8UUXIBLQ2TWr/sQKE9xtFuEmoQGlE1l6bGaDnnMLcYu+Asp3kDT0w4zYGsx 5r6XQVRH4+5N6eHZiaeYtFOujp5n+pjBaQK7wUUjDilPQ5QMzIuCL4YjVoylWiBNknvQWBXS lQCWmavOT9sttGQXdPCC5ynI+1ymZC1ORZKANLnRAb0NH/UCzcsstw2TAkFnMEbo9Zu9w7Kv AxBQXWeXhJI9XQssfrf4Gusdqx8nPEpfOqCtbbwJMATbHyqLt7/oz/5deGuwxgb65pWIzufa N7eop7uh+6bezi+rugUI+w6DABEBAAHCwXwEGAEIACYCGwwWIQQb2cqtc1xMOkYN/MpN3hD3 AP+DWgUCXw7HsgUJEqkpoQAKCRBN3hD3AP+DWrrpD/4qS3dyVRxDcDHIlmguXjC1Q5tZTwNB boaBTPHSy/Nksu0eY7x6HfQJ3xajVH32Ms6t1trDQmPx2iP5+7iDsb7OKAb5eOS8h+BEBDeq 3ecsQDv0fFJOA9ag5O3LLNk+3x3q7e0uo06XMaY7UHS341ozXUUI7wC7iKfoUTv03iO9El5f XpNMx/YrIMduZ2+nd9Di7o5+KIwlb2mAB9sTNHdMrXesX8eBL6T9b+MZJk+mZuPxKNVfEQMQ a5SxUEADIPQTPNvBewdeI80yeOCrN+Zzwy/Mrx9EPeu59Y5vSJOx/z6OUImD/GhX7Xvkt3kq Er5KTrJz3++B6SH9pum9PuoE/k+nntJkNMmQpR4MCBaV/J9gIOPGodDKnjdng+mXliF3Ptu6 3oxc2RCyGzTlxyMwuc2U5Q7KtUNTdDe8T0uE+9b8BLMVQDDfJjqY0VVqSUwImzTDLX9S4g/8 kC4HRcclk8hpyhY2jKGluZO0awwTIMgVEzmTyBphDg/Gx7dZU1Xf8HFuE+UZ5UDHDTnwgv7E th6RC9+WrhDNspZ9fJjKWRbveQgUFCpe1sa77LAw+XFrKmBHXp9ZVIe90RMe2tRL06BGiRZr jPrnvUsUUsjRoRNJjKKA/REq+sAnhkNPPZ/NNMjaZ5b8Tovi8C0tmxiCHaQYqj7G2rgnT0kt WNyWQQ== Organization: Red Hat In-Reply-To: X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-Originator: redhat.com Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspam-User: X-Rspamd-Server: rspam01 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 7E0A540021 X-Stat-Signature: wwyg1szez75srkrbh5nddfqpgep9yodx X-HE-Tag: 1721136138-474812 X-HE-Meta: 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 bLw3XvXM 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 X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.2.4 Sender: owner-linux-mm@kvack.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: owner-majordomo@kvack.org List-ID: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On 16.07.24 15:11, Daniel Gomez wrote: > On Tue, Jul 09, 2024 at 09:28:48AM GMT, Ryan Roberts wrote: >> On 07/07/2024 17:39, Daniel Gomez wrote: >>> On Fri, Jul 05, 2024 at 10:59:02AM GMT, David Hildenbrand wrote: >>>> On 05.07.24 10:45, Ryan Roberts wrote: >>>>> On 05/07/2024 06:47, Baolin Wang wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2024/7/5 03:49, Matthew Wilcox wrote: >>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 04, 2024 at 09:19:10PM +0200, David Hildenbrand wrote: >>>>>>>> On 04.07.24 21:03, David Hildenbrand wrote: >>>>>>>>>> shmem has two uses: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>     - MAP_ANONYMOUS | MAP_SHARED (this patch set) >>>>>>>>>>     - tmpfs >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For the second use case we don't want controls *at all*, we want the >>>>>>>>>> same heiristics used for all other filesystems to apply to tmpfs. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As discussed in the MM meeting, Hugh had a different opinion on that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> FWIW, I just recalled that I wrote a quick summary: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://lkml.kernel.org/r/f1783ff0-65bd-4b2b-8952-52b6822a0835@redhat.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I believe the meetings are recorded as well, but never looked at recordings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's not what I understood Hugh to mean.  To me, it seemed that Hugh >>>>>>> was expressing an opinion on using shmem as shmem, not as using it as >>>>>>> tmpfs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If I misunderstood Hugh, well, I still disagree.  We should not have >>>>>>> separate controls for this.  tmpfs is just not that special. >>>>> >>>>> I wasn't at the meeting that's being referred to, but I thought we previously >>>>> agreed that tmpfs *is* special because in some configurations its not backed by >>>>> swap so is locked in ram? >>>> >>>> There are multiple things to that, like: >>>> >>>> * Machines only having limited/no swap configured >>>> * tmpfs can be configured to never go to swap >>>> * memfd/tmpfs files getting used purely for mmap(): there is no real >>>> difference to MAP_ANON|MAP_SHARE besides the processes we share that >>>> memory with. >>>> >>>> Especially when it comes to memory waste concerns and access behavior in >>>> some cases, tmpfs behaved much more like anonymous memory. But there are for >>>> sure other use cases where tmpfs is not that special. >>> >>> Having controls to select the allowable folio order allocations for >>> tmpfs does not address any of these issues. The suggested filesystem >>> approach [1] involves allocating orders in larger chunks, but always >>> the same size you would allocate when using order-0 folios. >> >> Well you can't know that you will never allocate more. If you allocate a 2M > > In the fs large folio approach implementation [1], the allocation of a 2M (or > any non order-0) occurs when the size of the write/fallocate is 2M (and index > is aligned). I don't have time right now follow the discussion in detail here (I thought we had a meeting to discuss that and received guidance from Hugh?), but I'll point out two things: (1) We need a reasonable model for handling/allocating of large folios during page faults. shmem/tmpfs can be used just like anon-shmem if you simply only mmap that thing (hello VMs!). (2) Hugh gave (IMHO) clear feedback during the meeting how he thinks we should approach large folios in shmem. Maybe I got (2) all wrong and people can point out all the issues in my summary from the meeting. Otherwise, if people don't want to accept the result from that meeting, we need further guidance from Hugh. -- Cheers, David / dhildenb