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[2003:cb:c713:3b00:16ce:8f1c:dd50:90fb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-438e244eb0dsm37125965e9.27.2025.01.30.14.52.48 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Jan 2025 14:52:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2025 23:52:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] Migrating the un-migratable To: Matthew Wilcox Cc: "lsf-pc@lists.linux-foundation.org" , linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, "linux-mm@kvack.org" , Jeff Layton , Zi Yan , Shakeel Butt , Joanne Koong , Miklos Szeredi References: <882b566c-34d6-4e68-9447-6c74a0693f18@redhat.com> From: David Hildenbrand Autocrypt: addr=david@redhat.com; keydata= xsFNBFXLn5EBEAC+zYvAFJxCBY9Tr1xZgcESmxVNI/0ffzE/ZQOiHJl6mGkmA1R7/uUpiCjJ dBrn+lhhOYjjNefFQou6478faXE6o2AhmebqT4KiQoUQFV4R7y1KMEKoSyy8hQaK1umALTdL QZLQMzNE74ap+GDK0wnacPQFpcG1AE9RMq3aeErY5tujekBS32jfC/7AnH7I0v1v1TbbK3Gp XNeiN4QroO+5qaSr0ID2sz5jtBLRb15RMre27E1ImpaIv2Jw8NJgW0k/D1RyKCwaTsgRdwuK Kx/Y91XuSBdz0uOyU/S8kM1+ag0wvsGlpBVxRR/xw/E8M7TEwuCZQArqqTCmkG6HGcXFT0V9 PXFNNgV5jXMQRwU0O/ztJIQqsE5LsUomE//bLwzj9IVsaQpKDqW6TAPjcdBDPLHvriq7kGjt WhVhdl0qEYB8lkBEU7V2Yb+SYhmhpDrti9Fq1EsmhiHSkxJcGREoMK/63r9WLZYI3+4W2rAc UucZa4OT27U5ZISjNg3Ev0rxU5UH2/pT4wJCfxwocmqaRr6UYmrtZmND89X0KigoFD/XSeVv jwBRNjPAubK9/k5NoRrYqztM9W6sJqrH8+UWZ1Idd/DdmogJh0gNC0+N42Za9yBRURfIdKSb B3JfpUqcWwE7vUaYrHG1nw54pLUoPG6sAA7Mehl3nd4pZUALHwARAQABzSREYXZpZCBIaWxk ZW5icmFuZCA8ZGF2aWRAcmVkaGF0LmNvbT7CwZgEEwEIAEICGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQW AgMBAh4BAheAAhkBFiEEG9nKrXNcTDpGDfzKTd4Q9wD/g1oFAl8Ox4kFCRKpKXgACgkQTd4Q 9wD/g1oHcA//a6Tj7SBNjFNM1iNhWUo1lxAja0lpSodSnB2g4FCZ4R61SBR4l/psBL73xktp rDHrx4aSpwkRP6Epu6mLvhlfjmkRG4OynJ5HG1gfv7RJJfnUdUM1z5kdS8JBrOhMJS2c/gPf wv1TGRq2XdMPnfY2o0CxRqpcLkx4vBODvJGl2mQyJF/gPepdDfcT8/PY9BJ7FL6Hrq1gnAo4 3Iv9qV0JiT2wmZciNyYQhmA1V6dyTRiQ4YAc31zOo2IM+xisPzeSHgw3ONY/XhYvfZ9r7W1l pNQdc2G+o4Di9NPFHQQhDw3YTRR1opJaTlRDzxYxzU6ZnUUBghxt9cwUWTpfCktkMZiPSDGd KgQBjnweV2jw9UOTxjb4LXqDjmSNkjDdQUOU69jGMUXgihvo4zhYcMX8F5gWdRtMR7DzW/YE BgVcyxNkMIXoY1aYj6npHYiNQesQlqjU6azjbH70/SXKM5tNRplgW8TNprMDuntdvV9wNkFs 9TyM02V5aWxFfI42+aivc4KEw69SE9KXwC7FSf5wXzuTot97N9Phj/Z3+jx443jo2NR34XgF 89cct7wJMjOF7bBefo0fPPZQuIma0Zym71cP61OP/i11ahNye6HGKfxGCOcs5wW9kRQEk8P9 M/k2wt3mt/fCQnuP/mWutNPt95w9wSsUyATLmtNrwccz63XOwU0EVcufkQEQAOfX3n0g0fZz Bgm/S2zF/kxQKCEKP8ID+Vz8sy2GpDvveBq4H2Y34XWsT1zLJdvqPI4af4ZSMxuerWjXbVWb T6d4odQIG0fKx4F8NccDqbgHeZRNajXeeJ3R7gAzvWvQNLz4piHrO/B4tf8svmRBL0ZB5P5A 2uhdwLU3NZuK22zpNn4is87BPWF8HhY0L5fafgDMOqnf4guJVJPYNPhUFzXUbPqOKOkL8ojk CXxkOFHAbjstSK5Ca3fKquY3rdX3DNo+EL7FvAiw1mUtS+5GeYE+RMnDCsVFm/C7kY8c2d0G NWkB9pJM5+mnIoFNxy7YBcldYATVeOHoY4LyaUWNnAvFYWp08dHWfZo9WCiJMuTfgtH9tc75 7QanMVdPt6fDK8UUXIBLQ2TWr/sQKE9xtFuEmoQGlE1l6bGaDnnMLcYu+Asp3kDT0w4zYGsx 5r6XQVRH4+5N6eHZiaeYtFOujp5n+pjBaQK7wUUjDilPQ5QMzIuCL4YjVoylWiBNknvQWBXS lQCWmavOT9sttGQXdPCC5ynI+1ymZC1ORZKANLnRAb0NH/UCzcsstw2TAkFnMEbo9Zu9w7Kv AxBQXWeXhJI9XQssfrf4Gusdqx8nPEpfOqCtbbwJMATbHyqLt7/oz/5deGuwxgb65pWIzufa N7eop7uh+6bezi+rugUI+w6DABEBAAHCwXwEGAEIACYCGwwWIQQb2cqtc1xMOkYN/MpN3hD3 AP+DWgUCXw7HsgUJEqkpoQAKCRBN3hD3AP+DWrrpD/4qS3dyVRxDcDHIlmguXjC1Q5tZTwNB boaBTPHSy/Nksu0eY7x6HfQJ3xajVH32Ms6t1trDQmPx2iP5+7iDsb7OKAb5eOS8h+BEBDeq 3ecsQDv0fFJOA9ag5O3LLNk+3x3q7e0uo06XMaY7UHS341ozXUUI7wC7iKfoUTv03iO9El5f XpNMx/YrIMduZ2+nd9Di7o5+KIwlb2mAB9sTNHdMrXesX8eBL6T9b+MZJk+mZuPxKNVfEQMQ a5SxUEADIPQTPNvBewdeI80yeOCrN+Zzwy/Mrx9EPeu59Y5vSJOx/z6OUImD/GhX7Xvkt3kq Er5KTrJz3++B6SH9pum9PuoE/k+nntJkNMmQpR4MCBaV/J9gIOPGodDKnjdng+mXliF3Ptu6 3oxc2RCyGzTlxyMwuc2U5Q7KtUNTdDe8T0uE+9b8BLMVQDDfJjqY0VVqSUwImzTDLX9S4g/8 kC4HRcclk8hpyhY2jKGluZO0awwTIMgVEzmTyBphDg/Gx7dZU1Xf8HFuE+UZ5UDHDTnwgv7E th6RC9+WrhDNspZ9fJjKWRbveQgUFCpe1sa77LAw+XFrKmBHXp9ZVIe90RMe2tRL06BGiRZr jPrnvUsUUsjRoRNJjKKA/REq+sAnhkNPPZ/NNMjaZ5b8Tovi8C0tmxiCHaQYqj7G2rgnT0kt WNyWQQ== Organization: Red Hat In-Reply-To: X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-MFC-PROC-ID: zPB7qQcd1SW_G1BAm6wapkMBUVVg6p3FTGGc2zsw9Dc_1738277571 X-Mimecast-Originator: redhat.com Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Server: rspam02 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4AA8DC000D X-Stat-Signature: 6mr51dp8aptimekyqmd4cr3teesgjhdi X-Rspam-User: X-HE-Tag: 1738277574-323712 X-HE-Meta: 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 halnS4MG 9aonfE5fqX/pgZ+pLnC1annPePy6n2ajr4IQv38a6plLZz7+XIEOVsnrr3YafOfJnM6t7yn50qEL/AXK26iDrWZDw6IaTohMczAkngaNNXlIsdwAwTBt39SGqYDozujhtQYQtVhU1SM8OniPQ14VIy9C/k2y3ZANDrHeEq7UUCbCNDicOIgYFHJw/+5ggW8EGuUJ7aoI1YsK5y+E5IGT/HHQhLu/IbKTeirM6cH/RYENeQu6Y4UYkPkvOW0GmrH+pnLHixqauN2IXGPJsBSwA5J8qysEC4oa3LXqPmlqiSY91iC63WxARHsCXvF3A+erryycZ7s7b/95Y88S82hA+QCPtcVCyI5Lhwk1xXeTrfVsNggiL1O5B9d1VZjwBvR6VN3E/6XSh2Ed+2zLSGYWKKoTw5nTwypnOwEir5qWw3ZBzqHG/eL/wp7uKvQ== X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.2.4 Sender: owner-linux-mm@kvack.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: owner-majordomo@kvack.org List-ID: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On 30.01.25 22:48, Matthew Wilcox wrote: > On Wed, Jan 29, 2025 at 05:10:03PM +0100, David Hildenbrand wrote: >> As one example, in context of FUSE we recently discovered that folios that >> are under writeback cannot be migrated, and user space in control of when >> writeback will end. Something similar can happen ->readahead() where user >> space is in charge of supplying page content. Networking filesystems in >> general seem to be prone to this as well. > > You're not wrong. The question is whether we're willing to put the > asterisk on "In the presence of a misbehaving server (network or fuse), > our usual guarantees do not apply". I'm not sure it's a soluble > problem, though. Normally writeback (or, as you observed, readahead) > completes just fine and we don't need to use non-movable pages for them. Yes, we discussed a lot of that, and where it could be handled, and where it simply cannot be handled. I also don't believe that we can -- or even should try to -- be perfect. There are certainly cases that simply cannot be handled, or only very very painfully. Always falling back to allocating from use non-movable memory "simply because it could happen" (e.g., someone could trip over the network cable) is stupid. I think it's all a matter of seeing how far we can get with reasonable effort, and which cases are really problematic -- e.g., untrusted fuse -- and how they could be better handled. The discussion so far already revealed a bunch of interesting approaches, but also limitations (e.g., fuse with splice). > > But if someone trips over the network cable, anything in flight becomes > unmovable until someone plugs it back in. We've given the DMA address > of the memory to a network adapter, and that's generally a non-revokable > step (maybe the iommu could save us, but at what cost?) Right, and as we discussed as part of the FUSE discussion. It will be very interesting to hear into which problems others (e.g., Frank) ran into and how they could be mitigated/solved. > >> As another example, failing to split large folios can prevent migration if >> memory is fragmented. XFS (IOMAP in general) refuses to split folios that >> are dirty [3]. Splitting of folios and page migration have a lot in common. > > Welll ... yes and no. iomap refuses to split a dirty folio because it > has a per-folio data structure which tells us which blocks in the folio > are dirty. If we split the folio, we have to allocate an extra data > structure for each new folio that we create. It's not impossible, but > it's a big ask for slab. It'll be a lot better once Zi Yan's patch is > in to only split folios as needed rather than all the way. > > That problem doesn't arise for migration. filemap_release_folio() is > only called by fallback_migrate_folio(), which is only called if the > filesystem doesn't provide a ->migrate_folio callback. All iomap > users should use filemap_migrate_folio() which just has to move the > data structure from the old folio to the new. Right, that's why I said: "if memory is fragmented". Try migrating a 512 MiB folio (arm64 64k ..) when you cannot split (dirty) and memory is all fragmented such that you cannot easily grab a free 512 MiB one. Of course, that's an extreme example, but it can also easily happen on systems with smaller folios ... ... and then, we now have folios that cannot be split below a certain min order ... (well, we kind-of had that in an extreme form with hugetlb that cannot be slit at all) -- Cheers, David / dhildenb