From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.5 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIMWL_WL_HIGH, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,NICE_REPLY_A,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B77C48BDF for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 22:33:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from kanga.kvack.org (kanga.kvack.org [205.233.56.17]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DC3C61153 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 22:33:26 +0000 (UTC) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org 0DC3C61153 Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=linuxfoundation.org Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=owner-linux-mm@kvack.org Received: by kanga.kvack.org (Postfix) id F2EC46B008A; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 18:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by kanga.kvack.org (Postfix, from userid 40) id F06816B0092; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 18:33:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Delivered-To: int-list-linux-mm@kvack.org Received: by kanga.kvack.org (Postfix, from userid 63042) id DA9416B0093; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 18:33:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Delivered-To: linux-mm@kvack.org Received: from forelay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0230.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.230]) by kanga.kvack.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B6686B008A for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 18:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpin07.hostedemail.com (10.5.19.251.rfc1918.com [10.5.19.251]) by forelay03.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE6A8248076 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 22:33:24 +0000 (UTC) X-FDA: 78282812328.07.E8124BA Received: from mail-il1-f170.google.com (mail-il1-f170.google.com [209.85.166.170]) by imf28.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 747512001093 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 22:33:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-il1-f170.google.com with SMTP id q9so778914ilj.3 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 15:33:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=linuxfoundation.org; s=google; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wnmRkYKboAH8zJCZrdHT+Gn/DKgpUQ6lVnKyPQDk2e0=; b=AR49a0Vnv4dm3JSBho21CVzLTpAw6AKYpkMLlF0NkD583G7YZ5+wtgml5dypSZYMud 2hfVQyG1d5bTuI2+7TuzCftNECNvg3nMDkkcS0jnB8f2TmWBOjU2CGLh4fNOy9Ya+Pg/ 2GtHu1wBydy6jnwS6C8nQCjyYL+cINkYFKqTM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wnmRkYKboAH8zJCZrdHT+Gn/DKgpUQ6lVnKyPQDk2e0=; b=I2RxiKInUAop22TFbimXemlgHdqHrpZaBxbgSm5p/obKRLOy6HpE4/61R9u4glKtQC LdQGhHy63kdJmj2KIu6ROzpjN8l5XtQ7hgrHalQ6qOLCUwdzNAd+dXzJMG+5jKxM5tUB 6WxCQI8XOsxf7kO2H8teKwlR4vo3sotflAQL9g4QDXgRJd+TEwo3TXLjy+BZrnjUARMf SLHK3dhN/d/F26/DeTl5a1V370kjmWHTU/P5stHyvk95eGdQHiq5gfXFxyn1/LGyjU7+ tZHuWQg+IgIe639oueOmLzaZ/MixviZ22R/gYkYuP1uF2MAe43Wwo37QD5kX7T4mbkh3 qQgg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530tuqcTzvWHxZOkrMioRfD9hombBKNXYiFR3PtXnDDUToPuofGR YSD2dq8dwE9Vmp4ZZMq3zmNaMw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxN9TU0oJIL6ix/vNDlgeb3nGygOZZkb/SbcRaq0bOTovZyipADlOgJDT4QhLMrlnkFt38wbw== X-Received: by 2002:a92:1310:: with SMTP id 16mr672327ilt.60.1624401203750; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 15:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.112] (c-24-9-64-241.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [24.9.64.241]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j12sm8587753ilk.26.2021.06.22.15.33.22 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Jun 2021 15:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Maintainers / Kernel Summit 2021 planning kick-off To: Laurent Pinchart Cc: Steven Rostedt , Konstantin Ryabitsev , "Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult" , David Hildenbrand , James Bottomley , Greg KH , Christoph Lameter , Theodore Ts'o , Jiri Kosina , ksummit@lists.linux.dev, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-block@vger.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, linux-arch@vger.kernel.org, linux-api@vger.kernel.org, Shuah Khan References: <5038827c-463f-232d-4dec-da56c71089bd@metux.net> <20210610182318.jrxe3avfhkqq7xqn@nitro.local> <20210610152633.7e4a7304@oasis.local.home> <37e8d1a5-7c32-8e77-bb05-f851c87a1004@linuxfoundation.org> From: Shuah Khan Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 16:33:22 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Server: rspam05 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 747512001093 X-Stat-Signature: txamaapduu749ktx98p58hi6nyjags9b Authentication-Results: imf28.hostedemail.com; dkim=pass header.d=linuxfoundation.org header.s=google header.b=AR49a0Vn; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=linuxfoundation.org; spf=pass (imf28.hostedemail.com: domain of skhan@linuxfoundation.org designates 209.85.166.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=skhan@linuxfoundation.org X-HE-Tag: 1624401204-160321 X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.2.4 Sender: owner-linux-mm@kvack.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: owner-majordomo@kvack.org List-ID: On 6/18/21 7:46 AM, Laurent Pinchart wrote: > Hi Shuah, > > On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 01:55:23PM -0600, Shuah Khan wrote: >> On 6/10/21 1:26 PM, Steven Rostedt wrote: >>> On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 21:39:49 +0300 Laurent Pinchart wrote: >>> >>>> There will always be more informal discussions between on-site >>>> participants. After all, this is one of the benefits of conferences, by >>>> being all together we can easily organize ad-hoc discussions. This is >>>> traditionally done by finding a not too noisy corner in the conference >>>> center, would it be useful to have more break-out rooms with A/V >>>> equipment than usual ? >>> >>> I've been giving this quite some thought too, and I've come to the >>> understanding (and sure I can be wrong, but I don't think that I am), >>> is that when doing a hybrid event, the remote people will always be >>> "second class citizens" with respect to the communication that is going >>> on. Saying that we can make it the same is not going to happen unless >>> you start restricting what people can do that are present, and that >>> will just destroy the conference IMO. >>> >>> That said, I think we should add more to make the communication better >>> for those that are not present. Maybe an idea is to have break outs >>> followed by the presentation and evening events that include remote >>> attendees to discuss with those that are there about what they might >>> have missed. Have incentives at these break outs (free stacks and >>> beer?) to encourage the live attendees to attend and have a discussion >>> with the remote attendees. >>> >>> The presentations would have remote access, where remote attendees can >>> at the very least write in some chat their questions or comments. If >>> video and connectivity is good enough, perhaps have a screen where they >>> can show up and talk, but that may have logistical limitations. >>> >> >> You are absolutely right that the remote people will have a hard time >> participating and keeping up with in-person participants. I have a >> couple of ideas on how we might be able to improve remote experience >> without restricting in-person experience. >> >> - Have one or two moderators per session to watch chat and Q&A to enable >> remote participants to chime in and participate. >> - Moderators can make sure remote participation doesn't go unnoticed and >> enable taking turns for remote vs. people participating in person. >> >> It will be change in the way we interact in all in-person sessions for >> sure, however it might enhance the experience for remote attendees. > > A moderator to watch online chat and relay questions is I believe very > good for presentations, it's hard for a presenter to keep an eye on a > screen while having to manage the interaction with the audience in the > room (there's the usual joke of the difference between an introvert and > an extrovert open-source developer is that the extrovert looks at *your* > shoes when talking to you, but in many presentations the speaker > nowadays does a fairly good job as watching the audience, at least from > time to time :-)). > > For workshop or brainstorming types of sessions, the highest barrier to > participation for remote attendees is local attendees not speaking in > microphones. That's the number one rule that moderators would need to > enforce, I think all the rest depends on it. This may require a larger > number of microphones in the room than usual. > Absolutely. Moderator has to make sure the following things happen for this to be effective: - Watch chat and Q&A, Raise hand from remote participants - Enforce some kind of taking turns to allow fairness in participation - Have the speaker repeat questions asked in the room (we do that now in some talks - both remote and in-person - chat and Q&A needs reading out for recording) - Explore live Transcription features available in the virtual conf. platform. You still need humans watching the transcription. - Have a running session notes combined with transcription. Any of these options aren't sustainable when large number of people are participating remotely or in-person. In general a small number of people participate either in person or remote in any case, based on my observation in remote and in-person settings. Maybe we can experiment with one or two workshops this time around and see how it works out. If we can figure an effective way, it would be beneficial for people that can't travel for one reason or the other. thanks, -- Shuah