From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from kanga.kvack.org (kanga.kvack.org [205.233.56.17]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C48ABC64EC4 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2023 21:13:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: by kanga.kvack.org (Postfix) id 2CE9E280001; Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:13:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by kanga.kvack.org (Postfix, from userid 40) id 27C7D6B0074; Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:13:59 -0500 (EST) X-Delivered-To: int-list-linux-mm@kvack.org Received: by kanga.kvack.org (Postfix, from userid 63042) id 16B1E280001; Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:13:59 -0500 (EST) X-Delivered-To: linux-mm@kvack.org Received: from relay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0011.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.11]) by kanga.kvack.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A1E6B0072 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:13:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpin10.hostedemail.com (a10.router.float.18 [10.200.18.1]) by unirelay01.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C6C1C6077 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2023 21:13:58 +0000 (UTC) X-FDA: 80550612156.10.ADAA055 Received: from bombadil.infradead.org (bombadil.infradead.org [198.137.202.133]) by imf13.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EDF620013 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2023 21:13:56 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: imf13.hostedemail.com; dkim=pass header.d=infradead.org header.s=bombadil.20210309 header.b=O1xySUPq; spf=none (imf13.hostedemail.com: domain of mcgrof@infradead.org has no SPF policy when checking 198.137.202.133) smtp.mailfrom=mcgrof@infradead.org; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, DKIM not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=kernel.org (policy=none) ARC-Seal: i=1; s=arc-20220608; d=hostedemail.com; t=1678396436; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=L6Froghr9ycvHVwfQJBDFwRECAiszH1ZhDlVqtloiEetJXBzuWdoQ7uTjTsp3SK/vZY+Pp rncHvpVjpwHd8J5asTSeQr/OCyS8/eKkjndh3yyBO9C1HUJz8zPDM1g9SYkbveygUgFjkq 1hno5N9ISdop0OOxIiwmwLQneLGSMys= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; imf13.hostedemail.com; dkim=pass header.d=infradead.org header.s=bombadil.20210309 header.b=O1xySUPq; spf=none (imf13.hostedemail.com: domain of mcgrof@infradead.org has no SPF policy when checking 198.137.202.133) smtp.mailfrom=mcgrof@infradead.org; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, DKIM not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=kernel.org (policy=none) ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hostedemail.com; s=arc-20220608; t=1678396436; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:dkim-signature; bh=GX/fcDjqXbiud8lYARujqcmOd9zxNY2CS9n0xDw/OGs=; b=xF6Vgb1VAArweeyxZkG++zd7EH0a4KCPRMq2ESfBuSO1CQ/nBbCq+JDQVrPfwZLXvuJaTv OS4TUL8DDGWCnF/Hd0oAXpkiIRX2N3urVQe+HZZLAKuTrWRo+dowyCjKctBe9/j3OYCnHk ZYlOelkyiG8nvQYbiLdTpCNtM2kd4RM= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=infradead.org; s=bombadil.20210309; h=Sender:In-Reply-To:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=GX/fcDjqXbiud8lYARujqcmOd9zxNY2CS9n0xDw/OGs=; b=O1xySUPqu8oelqWJnDI9b46D/h B0aUPXPLBAxzY19u8+ubwJQ9sAgSskDG072eZ7zz8msH2Oz+MICbvJeFfESJrk6VU9OXyiY2V6kiv /rlirrGGYmyzYfqZs2VTp1Y5sqDQF6LHGUSjQst9SfC0v3cm7MGZAgxNauc7TnYaGORyc3M80xjc7 P1/ibfUV0oYi/fLF28X78kwsMLolt0ieTIZ1Y6PlWuobkXVcvjbRfpEmhmYcdbdBXsLBLLWWuHIrM SVAZrLMnDUTiXe2AfYC4gV3ds68s3jLToVM4FEL5C4nmWL/OZWvhQbQhYJocr0xUp/YaGLpZFwYuL TSBhtuyw==; Received: from mcgrof by bombadil.infradead.org with local (Exim 4.94.2 #2 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1paNa7-00BxAY-8M; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 21:13:47 +0000 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 13:13:47 -0800 From: Luis Chamberlain To: James Bottomley , Dan Helmick Cc: "Martin K. Petersen" , Javier =?iso-8859-1?Q?Gonz=E1lez?= , Matthew Wilcox , Theodore Ts'o , Hannes Reinecke , Keith Busch , Pankaj Raghav , Daniel Gomez , lsf-pc@lists.linux-foundation.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-block@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] Cloud storage optimizations Message-ID: References: <0b70deae-9fc7-ca33-5737-85d7532b3d33@suse.de> <20230306161214.GB959362@mit.edu> <1367983d4fa09dcb63e29db2e8be3030ae6f6e8c.camel@HansenPartnership.com> <20230309080434.tnr33rhzh3a5yc5q@ArmHalley.local> <260064c68b61f4a7bc49f09499e1c107e2a28f31.camel@HansenPartnership.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Rspam-User: X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 9EDF620013 X-Rspamd-Server: rspam01 X-Stat-Signature: xafnmeqojwp1fg6cg7kyfcrmgtz4d799 X-HE-Tag: 1678396436-631623 X-HE-Meta: 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 EYGC09CO OVviZu0M758PwN6tYMwilWz7TlK7Cnepn/9rd3iGFu3KdasaGqgzi4CC1+shXSLlmKdlKrEK/LepSm3F3ZbePpAGoNkUUaGCfY+OZg2N82AypIzLGeQ7pHmh8do5RNnz+nAofNhiHmwTmrhhtzS+E7uHK4DuNIwcmzEDYc2oussXhnAPH0i0sDxAPQzmgkY6IjeJWBveU8b5MdZqcqxxt1yHCySBn8D1VIdY3+H5iM7dJOyR7WizRZUxpShzpyK/lRzovxt012D/uI31/2qZ0xw6ZYijPITic5c3sTyPSXT8ndeXQaZ0OWnd4QcDh0RbnpYl01VHHx7plJe8sfFS9nuFMIpTeb+aoipCm X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000253, version=1.2.4 Sender: owner-linux-mm@kvack.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: owner-majordomo@kvack.org List-ID: On Thu, Mar 09, 2023 at 03:49:50PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote: > On Thu, 2023-03-09 at 10:23 -0500, Martin K. Petersen wrote: > > > This is not to say I think larger block sizes is in any way a bad > > > idea ... I just think that given the history, it will be driven by > > > application needs rather than what the manufacturers tell us. > > > > I think it would be beneficial for Linux to support filesystem blocks > > larger than the page size. Based on experience outlined above, I am > > not convinced larger logical block sizes will get much traction. But > > that doesn't prevent devices from advertising larger > > physical/minimum/optimal I/O sizes and for us to handle those more > > gracefully than we currently do. > > Right, I was wondering if we could try to persuade the Manufacturers to > advertise a more meaningful optimal I/O size ... Advocacy for using meaningful values is a real thing, Dan Helmick talked about this at the last SDC 2022 at least for NVMe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_M92RlVgIQ&ab_channel=SNIAVideo A big future question is of course how / when to use these for filesystems. Should there be, for instance a 'mkfs --optimal-bs' or something which may look whatever hints the media uses ? Or do we just leaves the magic incantations to the admins? Luis