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[24.9.64.241]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s8sm3047598ilj.51.2021.06.22.16.33.49 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Jun 2021 16:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Maintainers / Kernel Summit 2021 planning kick-off To: Laurent Pinchart Cc: Steven Rostedt , Konstantin Ryabitsev , "Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult" , David Hildenbrand , James Bottomley , Greg KH , Christoph Lameter , Theodore Ts'o , Jiri Kosina , ksummit@lists.linux.dev, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-block@vger.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, linux-arch@vger.kernel.org, linux-api@vger.kernel.org, Shuah Khan References: <5038827c-463f-232d-4dec-da56c71089bd@metux.net> <20210610182318.jrxe3avfhkqq7xqn@nitro.local> <20210610152633.7e4a7304@oasis.local.home> <37e8d1a5-7c32-8e77-bb05-f851c87a1004@linuxfoundation.org> From: Shuah Khan Message-ID: <3bfbe45c-2356-6db0-e1b8-11b7e37ae858@linuxfoundation.org> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 17:33:49 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Authentication-Results: imf23.hostedemail.com; dkim=pass header.d=linuxfoundation.org header.s=google header.b="QJp6/9lU"; spf=pass (imf23.hostedemail.com: domain of skhan@linuxfoundation.org designates 209.85.166.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=skhan@linuxfoundation.org; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=linuxfoundation.org X-Rspamd-Server: rspam03 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: B0BEAA002D4A X-Stat-Signature: hqazfse7ird9d5neer94sf8rzzgeduqg X-HE-Tag: 1624404831-152829 X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.2.4 Sender: owner-linux-mm@kvack.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: owner-majordomo@kvack.org List-ID: On 6/22/21 4:59 PM, Laurent Pinchart wrote: > Hi Shuah, > > On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 04:33:22PM -0600, Shuah Khan wrote: >> On 6/18/21 7:46 AM, Laurent Pinchart wrote: >>> On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 01:55:23PM -0600, Shuah Khan wrote: >>>> On 6/10/21 1:26 PM, Steven Rostedt wrote: >>>>> On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 21:39:49 +0300 Laurent Pinchart wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> There will always be more informal discussions between on-site >>>>>> participants. After all, this is one of the benefits of conferences, by >>>>>> being all together we can easily organize ad-hoc discussions. This is >>>>>> traditionally done by finding a not too noisy corner in the conference >>>>>> center, would it be useful to have more break-out rooms with A/V >>>>>> equipment than usual ? >>>>> >>>>> I've been giving this quite some thought too, and I've come to the >>>>> understanding (and sure I can be wrong, but I don't think that I am), >>>>> is that when doing a hybrid event, the remote people will always be >>>>> "second class citizens" with respect to the communication that is going >>>>> on. Saying that we can make it the same is not going to happen unless >>>>> you start restricting what people can do that are present, and that >>>>> will just destroy the conference IMO. >>>>> >>>>> That said, I think we should add more to make the communication better >>>>> for those that are not present. Maybe an idea is to have break outs >>>>> followed by the presentation and evening events that include remote >>>>> attendees to discuss with those that are there about what they might >>>>> have missed. Have incentives at these break outs (free stacks and >>>>> beer?) to encourage the live attendees to attend and have a discussion >>>>> with the remote attendees. >>>>> >>>>> The presentations would have remote access, where remote attendees can >>>>> at the very least write in some chat their questions or comments. If >>>>> video and connectivity is good enough, perhaps have a screen where they >>>>> can show up and talk, but that may have logistical limitations. >>>>> >>>> >>>> You are absolutely right that the remote people will have a hard time >>>> participating and keeping up with in-person participants. I have a >>>> couple of ideas on how we might be able to improve remote experience >>>> without restricting in-person experience. >>>> >>>> - Have one or two moderators per session to watch chat and Q&A to enable >>>> remote participants to chime in and participate. >>>> - Moderators can make sure remote participation doesn't go unnoticed and >>>> enable taking turns for remote vs. people participating in person. >>>> >>>> It will be change in the way we interact in all in-person sessions for >>>> sure, however it might enhance the experience for remote attendees. >>> >>> A moderator to watch online chat and relay questions is I believe very >>> good for presentations, it's hard for a presenter to keep an eye on a >>> screen while having to manage the interaction with the audience in the >>> room (there's the usual joke of the difference between an introvert and >>> an extrovert open-source developer is that the extrovert looks at *your* >>> shoes when talking to you, but in many presentations the speaker >>> nowadays does a fairly good job as watching the audience, at least from >>> time to time :-)). >>> >>> For workshop or brainstorming types of sessions, the highest barrier to >>> participation for remote attendees is local attendees not speaking in >>> microphones. That's the number one rule that moderators would need to >>> enforce, I think all the rest depends on it. This may require a larger >>> number of microphones in the room than usual. >>> >> >> Absolutely. Moderator has to make sure the following things happen for >> this to be effective: >> >> - Watch chat and Q&A, Raise hand from remote participants >> - Enforce some kind of taking turns to allow fairness in >> participation >> - Have the speaker repeat questions asked in the room (we do that now >> in some talks - both remote and in-person - chat and Q&A needs >> reading out for recording) >> - Explore live Transcription features available in the virtual conf. >> platform. You still need humans watching the transcription. >> - Have a running session notes combined with transcription. >> >> Any of these options aren't sustainable when large number of people >> are participating remotely or in-person. In general a small number of >> people participate either in person or remote in any case, based on >> my observation in remote and in-person settings. >> >> Maybe we can experiment with one or two workshops this time around >> and see how it works out. If we can figure an effective way, it would >> be beneficial for people that can't travel for one reason or the >> other. > > Can we nominate moderators ahead of time ? For workshop-style > discussions, they need to be a person who won't participate actively in > the discussions, as it's impossible to both contribute and moderate at > the same time. > Correct. It will be impossible to participate and moderate in workshop setting. We have to ask for volunteers and nominate moderators ahead of time. thanks, -- Shuah