Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Rajagopal Ananthanarayanan]

Benjamin Redelings I wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>         I just compiled pre7-6.  It seems more useable than pre7-5.  However,
> it basically does not swap.  The first time there is any memory
> pressure, it swaps 32 pages (128k), and it never swaps again.
>         In similar circumstances, pre7-4 has gotten up to 30Mb swapped.  There
> are many unused daemons running in my 64Mb RAM.
> 
>         I also reverted to
>   count = nr_threads / (priority +1)
>         though I didn't check carefully what this did.  Anyway, it doesn't
> seem to make a difference.
> 


Yes, your observation is a good summarization of 7-6 behaviour.
I'm also not seeing good results.  The writes from dbench
start failing; i guess the grab_page_cache in generic_file_write
is returning ENOMEM.

Again, as you say, the system doesn't want to swap after an intial
flurry of activity.

Linus has taken in the fix to "old" vs. "young" in shrink_mmap,
and taken out the aggressive counter change (also in shrink_mmap).
But apparently another change in try_to_swap_out is causing problems.
I haven't an analytical evaluation, but empericically, if I remove this
in try_to_swap_out (mm/vmscan.c), dbench runs ok.

--------------- mm/vmscan.c around line 113 --------------
        /*
         * Don't do any of the expensive stuff if
         * we're not really interested in this zone.
	 */
        if (!page->zone->zone_wake_kswapd)
                goto out_unlock;
----------------------------------------------------------

Benjamin, can you comment this line out and see if it improves things?

Linus, one thing crossed my mind. With the above change swap_out()
will "count" as having tried this process, although the zone may
never need balancing. Aren't the initial system threads at the
beginning of the task_list? If so, do you think their zones may
never balancing?  ... and hence swap_out in essence gives up early?





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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Benjamin Redelings I]

> --------------- mm/vmscan.c around line 113 --------------
>         /*
>          * Don't do any of the expensive stuff if
>          * we're not really interested in this zone.
>          */
>         if (!page->zone->zone_wake_kswapd)
>                 goto out_unlock;
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Benjamin, can you comment this line out and see if it improves things?

	OK, reverted this.  I also reverted to "count = nr_threads / (priority
+ 1)", I hope that doesn't cause a problem.
	With the above patch reverted, the system swaps amazingly well, as
opposed to almost never.  It swaps out tasks in the correct order.  It
is also a bit more aggressive than pre7-4, swapping out unused daemons
even when there is lots of cache that presumably could be freed (e.g.
BEFORE I run netscape).  But this seems to be the right decision, given
that that stuff isn't swapped back in later.
	After running lots of processes, I can also say that this kernel does
not have a permanent cache size of 30Mb/64Mb.  It actually decreases
eventually instead of swapping out foreground programs like before.


	Does this mean that the zone_wake_kswapd essentially has the wrong
value, so that we don't even balance the zone for which we were called?

-benRI
UP PPro, 64MB RAM, IDE
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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Linus Torvalds]

On Sat, 6 May 2000, Rajagopal Ananthanarayanan wrote:
> 
> Linus has taken in the fix to "old" vs. "young" in shrink_mmap,
> and taken out the aggressive counter change (also in shrink_mmap).
> But apparently another change in try_to_swap_out is causing problems.
> I haven't an analytical evaluation, but empericically, if I remove this
> in try_to_swap_out (mm/vmscan.c), dbench runs ok.

Yes. I was thinking some more about it, and it isusing the wrong test. It
must use the same test as the one in page_alloc.cto determine whether
azone is "interesting" or not - otherwise you get into a situation where
page_alloc.c doesn't want to allocate from a zone because it's not quite
empty enough, but at the same time vmscan doesn't want to free pages from
the zone because it's not quite full enough.

No wonder that if you get to that situation, the allocator starts getting
unhappy and says "no free pages".

> --------------- mm/vmscan.c around line 113 --------------
>         /*
>          * Don't do any of the expensive stuff if
>          * we're not really interested in this zone.
> 	 */
>         if (!page->zone->zone_wake_kswapd)
>                 goto out_unlock;

Make this test be the same as in "__alloc_pages()" in mm/page_alloc.c, and
it should be ok. The test there is:

                /* Are we supposed to free memory? Don't make it worse.. */
                if (!z->zone_wake_kswapd && z->free_pages > z->pages_low) {

and I suspect that we mightactually make the vmscan.c test more eager to
swap stuff out: my private source tree says

        /*
         * Don't do any of the expensive stuff if
         * we're not really interested in this zone.
         */
	if (z->free_pages > z->pages_high) 
		goto out_unlock;

in vmscan.c, and that seems to be quite well-behaved too (but if somebody
has the energy to test the two different versions, I'd absolutely love to
hear results..)

		Linus

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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Benjamin Redelings I]

> and I suspect that we mightactually make the vmscan.c test more eager to
> swap stuff out: my private source tree says
> 
>         /*
>          * Don't do any of the expensive stuff if
>          * we're not really interested in this zone.
>          */
>         if (z->free_pages > z->pages_high)
>                 goto out_unlock;
> 
> in vmscan.c, and that seems to be quite well-behaved too (but if somebody
> has the energy to test the two different versions, I'd absolutely love to
> hear results..)

Although I would have thought that putting this test in would have no
effect on performance, it actually kills performance.  Since the test
appears very reasonable, I think this means we have a bug elsewhere, and
that removing this reasonable test cures a symptom, but not the bug.

OK, details.
	With Linus's test, the kernel does not want to swap much.  It is a
little better than the pervious version of the test, but much lower than
if the test was removed.  One result is that the cache shrinks to low
sizes like 14Mb/64Mb, when there are several unused daemons that could 
be swapped out.	
	Also, the WRONG PROCESSES are swapped out.  Several large daemons that
were swapped out w/o the test, are now left in core.  Instead, RUNNING
programs are swapped out, like netscape.  Even worse, running xquake and
'tar -xf linux.tar' makes the system non-responsive - the VM continues
paging the quake ENGINE in and out and in and out :P
	It looks like some processes (my unused daemons) are scanned only once,
and then get stuck at the end of some list?  Is that a possible
explanation? <guessing> Perhaps Rik's moving list-head idea is needed?
</guessing>.

carry on,
-benRI
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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Rik van Riel]

On Fri, 5 May 2000, Benjamin Redelings I wrote:

> 	It looks like some processes (my unused daemons) are
> scanned only once, and then get stuck at the end of some list?  
> Is that a possible explanation? <guessing> Perhaps Rik's moving
> list-head idea is needed? </guessing>.

I'm busy implementing Davem's active/inactive list proposal
to replace the current page/swapcache. I don't know if it'll
work really well though, so research into other directions
is very much welcome ;)

Rik
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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Rajagopal Ananthanarayanan]

Rik van Riel wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 5 May 2000, Benjamin Redelings I wrote:
> 
> >       It looks like some processes (my unused daemons) are
> > scanned only once, and then get stuck at the end of some list?
> > Is that a possible explanation? <guessing> Perhaps Rik's moving
> > list-head idea is needed? </guessing>.
> 
> I'm busy implementing Davem's active/inactive list proposal
> to replace the current page/swapcache. I don't know if it'll
> work really well though, so research into other directions
> is very much welcome ;)
> 

Again my experience, with skipping pages whose zones have
(free_pages > pages_high) in try_to_swap_out, is similar to
Benajamin's ... the system behaves better than 7-4, but
isn't as good as without any zone skipping.

Once again, I'm back to asking, should we be swapping at all?
Shouldn't shrink_mmap() be finding pages to throw out?

I have a hunch. Follow this argument closely. In shrink_mmap we have:

------------
	if (p_zone->free_pages > p_zone->pages_high)
                        goto dispose_continue;
------

This page doesn't count against a valid try in shrink_mmap().
Soon, we run out of pages to look at, but "count" in shrink_mmap is
still high. So, we go back to scanning the lru list all over again.
If some pages' reference count was flipped in the first loop, good.
If it wasn't, and all that remained was unreferenced pages whose
zones have reached the high water mark, then they won't be victimized,
because the same test above will skip the page again!

Still on the second loop, shrink_mmap will look at other pages,
for instance because an I/O is in flight, and _those_ pages do tally
against "count" ... so, in essense, we have skipped unreferenced pages
belonging to zones with high water mark, for ever. This is wrong.

My solution is simple. Have a variable, "second_scan" initialized to zero,
at the top of shrink_mmap(). Set "second_scan = 1" at the bottom of the loop
in shrink_mmap:

---------------
	/* wrong zone?  not looped too often?    roll again... */
        if (page->zone != zone && count) {
		second_scan = 1;
                goto again;
	}
-------------

Now the pages_high test will be changed to:

-----------
	 if (p_zone->free_pages > p_zone->pages_high && !second_scan)
                        goto dispose_continue;
-----------

That is, victimize pages in zones with lots of free_pages if having
scanned once we didn't find anything.

If you are worried about unreferenced pages not being looked at in
the second_scan, we can change it to a third_scan.

Now, the final argument: since this page was skipped by shrink_mmap(),
the test in try_to_swap_out that Benjamin, I and Linus have been playing
around becomes important. Without it, pages in zones with lots of
free memory neither get "shrunk" nor get swapped.

What do you guys think?

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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Benjamin Redelings I]

> Once again, I'm back to asking, should we be swapping at all?
> Shouldn't shrink_mmap() be finding pages to throw out?
> 

Thats a good question.  However, it also misses part of the point.

The reason for the bad performance is not mainly that there is too
little swapout.  The WRONG PAGES are swapped out!  The system spends
most of its I/O bandwith doing page-in's.

Remember, on my system, the VM swapped out the quake ENGINE, which was
running 100% of the time, in order to keep unused daemons blocking on
select in core.

That is just wrong.  Right?

-benRI
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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Rik van Riel]

On Sat, 6 May 2000, Rajagopal Ananthanarayanan wrote:

> What do you guys think?

I think you may want to take a look at
page_alloc.c::__alloc_pages(), where the kernel balances
between different zones...

- kswapd is woken up when zone->free_pages < zone->pages_low
- kswapd goes to sleep when it has freed enough pages in the
  current zone
- if another zone has a lower memory load, we'll free some
  "extra" pages in that other zone, up to zone->pages_high

This should provide enough balancing between zones...

regards,

Rik
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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Linus Torvalds]

On Sat, 6 May 2000, Rajagopal Ananthanarayanan wrote:
> 
> I have a hunch. Follow this argument closely. In shrink_mmap we have:
> 
> ------------
> 	if (p_zone->free_pages > p_zone->pages_high)
>                         goto dispose_continue;
> ------
> 
> This page doesn't count against a valid try in shrink_mmap().

[ second-scan logic ]

Ugh.

This may be right, but it also gets my hackles up for being "too
contrieved". It shouldn't be this complex.

Either "shrink_mmap()" should care about the zone or it shouldn't. If it
should, then it should just check the particular zone that it was passed
in (ie basically per-zone LRU again). If it shouldn't, then it probably
should just take the LRU as-is.

Also, one thing that keeps me wondering is whether the current
"try_to_free_pages()" is right at all.

Remember: the fundamental operation isn't really "try_to_free_pages()"
Nobody really ever calls that directly. The fundamental operation we
want to have is really just "balance_zones()", and it may be that the
by isolating the "zone" we're aiming for early in balance_zones() we've
done a mistake.

My personal inclination is along the lines of
 - we never really care about any particular zone. We should make sure
   that all zones get balanced, and that is what running kswapd will
   eventually cause. 
 - things like "shrink_mmap" and "vmscan" should both free any page from
   any zone that is (a) a good candidateand (b) the zone is not yet
   well-balanced.
 - looking at "shrink_mmap()", my reaction would not be to add more
   complexity to it, but to remove the _one_ special case that looks at
   one specific zone:

        /* wrong zone?  not looped too often?    roll again... */
        if (page->zone != zone && count)
                goto again;

   I would suggest just removing that test altogether. The page wasn't
   from a "wrong zone". It was just a different zone that also needed
   balancing.

That single test stands out as being zone-specific instead of geared
towards the bigger goal of "let's balance the zones". It would also cause
"shrink_mmap()" to =return= failure, even if shrink_mmap() actually ended
up doing real work. Which just seems wrong.

So instead of making that test more complicated and adding a "phase"
counter, why not just remove it? Then "shrink_mmap()"will start failing
onlywhen it _truly_ fails - ie when it no longer can find any pages really
worth freeing. 

		Linus "gut instinct" Torvalds

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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Rik van Riel]

On Sat, 6 May 2000, Linus Torvalds wrote:

> My personal inclination is along the lines of
>  - we never really care about any particular zone. We should make sure
>    that all zones get balanced, and that is what running kswapd will
>    eventually cause. 
>  - things like "shrink_mmap" and "vmscan" should both free any page from
>    any zone that is (a) a good candidateand (b) the zone is not yet
>    well-balanced.

double-nod

>  - looking at "shrink_mmap()", my reaction would not be to add more
>    complexity to it, but to remove the _one_ special case that looks at
>    one specific zone:
> 
>         /* wrong zone?  not looped too often?    roll again... */
>         if (page->zone != zone && count)
>                 goto again;
> 
>    I would suggest just removing that test altogether. The page wasn't
>    from a "wrong zone". It was just a different zone that also needed
>    balancing.

The danger in this is that we could "use up" the remaining
ticks on the count variable in do_try_to_free_pages() and
end up with a failed rmqueue for the request...

Oh, and the return value for shrink_mmap() will still
indicate success, even if we failed to free a page for
the zone we intended ... we've already decided for that
before we get into the loop or not.

But I agree that this test is wrong; it makes shrink_mmap()
loop to often compared to swap_out(), leading to worse page
aging in the swap cache and increased cpu use.

The solution could be to let do_try_to_free_page() loop
more often than it does now ... increasing our chances
of freeing from the right zone while at the same time
not increasing the amount of work to be done (we need
to do it anyway, so why not do it now and have that
memory allocation succeed?)

regards,

Rik
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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Linus Torvalds]

On Sun, 7 May 2000, Rik van Riel wrote:

> On Sat, 6 May 2000, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
> >  - looking at "shrink_mmap()", my reaction would not be to add more
> >    complexity to it, but to remove the _one_ special case that looks at
> >    one specific zone:
> > 
> >         /* wrong zone?  not looped too often?    roll again... */
> >         if (page->zone != zone && count)
> >                 goto again;
> > 
> >    I would suggest just removing that test altogether. The page wasn't
> >    from a "wrong zone". It was just a different zone that also needed
> >    balancing.
> 
> The danger in this is that we could "use up" the remaining
> ticks on the count variable in do_try_to_free_pages() and
> end up with a failed rmqueue for the request...

I agree.

However, I think the logic should be
 - kswapd tries to keep all zones reasonably well balanced
 - but kswapd obviously cannot do a perfect job, especially with bursty
   allocations, so:
 - we should at some point start synchronously helping kswapd
 - if somebody has special requirements, they may not be always possibly
   under all circumstances.

Basically, it boils down to: we should try to do our best, but we cannot
do wonders and we should realize that too.

> Oh, and the return value for shrink_mmap() will still
> indicate success, even if we failed to free a page for
> the zone we intended ... we've already decided for that
> before we get into the loop or not.

You're right. The only downside to the extra test is that it unbalances
the page freeing, and can lead to (for example) not using swap very
efficiently because we're looping too much in shrink_mmap. Which actually
seems to be one of the symptoms right now, but it may of course be dueto
something else too.

It can also make the aging less efficient.

But my real reason for disliking it is that I prefer conceptually simple
approaches, and that one test just doesn't fit conceptually ;)

		Linus

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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Rajagopal Ananthanarayanan]

Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 

> 
> It can also make the aging less efficient.
> 
> But my real reason for disliking it is that I prefer conceptually simple
> approaches, and that one test just doesn't fit conceptually ;)

Linus & Rik, agreed that the second_scan logic I proposed
earlier was not perfect.

And, I agree that we should make things simpler. One question
about what shrink_mmap is trying to accomplish, conceptually:

In the presense unreferenced pages in zones with free_pages > pages_high,
should shrink_mmap ever fail? Current shrink_mmap will
always skip over the pages of such zones. This in turn
can lead to swapping.


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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Linus Torvalds]

On Sun, 7 May 2000, Rajagopal Ananthanarayanan wrote:
> 
> In the presense unreferenced pages in zones with free_pages > pages_high,
> should shrink_mmap ever fail? Current shrink_mmap will
> always skip over the pages of such zones. This in turn
> can lead to swapping.

I think shrink_mmap() should fail for that case: it tells the logic that
calls it that its time to stop calling shrink_mmap(), and go to vmscan
instead (so that next time we call shrink_mmap, we may in fact find some
pages to free).

If there really are tons of pages with free_pages > pages_high, then we
must have called shrink_mmap() for some other reason, so we're probably
interested in another zone altogether that isn't even a subset of the
"tons of memory" case (because if we had been interested in any class that
has the "lots of free memory" zone as a subset, then the logic in
__alloc_pages() would just have allocated it directly without worrying
about zone balancing at all).

		Linus

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gprof data for pre7-6

[Rajagopal Ananthanarayanan]

Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 7 May 2000, Rajagopal Ananthanarayanan wrote:
> >
> > In the presense unreferenced pages in zones with free_pages > pages_high,
> > should shrink_mmap ever fail? Current shrink_mmap will
> > always skip over the pages of such zones. This in turn
> > can lead to swapping.
> 
> I think shrink_mmap() should fail for that case: it tells the logic that
> calls it that its time to stop calling shrink_mmap(), and go to vmscan
> instead (so that next time we call shrink_mmap, we may in fact find some
> pages to free).
> 
> If there really are tons of pages with free_pages > pages_high, then we
> must have called shrink_mmap() for some other reason, so we're probably
> interested in another zone altogether that isn't even a subset of the
> "tons of memory" case (because if we had been interested in any class that
> has the "lots of free memory" zone as a subset, then the logic in
> __alloc_pages() would just have allocated it directly without worrying
> about zone balancing at all).
> 
>                 Linus


Here's a summary of how shrink_mmap behaved during a run of dbench with pre7-6:

-----------------------------------------------
                4.49    2.01   28637/28637       do_try_to_free_pages <cycle 1> [10]
[11]     9.3    4.49    2.01   28637         shrink_mmap [11]
                0.86    0.35  676451/738000      try_to_free_buffers [35]
                0.27    0.00  676607/1513380     _wake_up [44]
                0.21    0.00 8586859/8586859     shrink_mmap_zone_high_water [87]
                0.21    0.00 9367145/9367145     shrink_mmap_iteration [88]
                0.06    0.00   43769/197653      _free_pages_ok [76]
                0.02    0.00   42358/104601      remove_page_from_hash_queue [135]
                0.02    0.00  632659/632659      shrink_mmap_cant_free_buffers [181]
                0.00    0.00  101945/101945      shrink_mmap_referenced [258]
                0.00    0.00     694/769         _delete_from_swap_cache [287]
                0.00    0.00   42358/42358       shrink_mmap_page_cache_clean [331]
                0.00    0.00   28348/28348       shrink_mmap_wrong_success [332]
                0.00    0.00   15421/15421       shrink_mmap_wrong_zone [524]
                0.00    0.00    1726/1726        shrink_mmap_count1 [536]
                0.00    0.00     694/694         shrink_mmap_page_swap_cache [545]
                0.00    0.00     179/179         shrink_mmap_page_count2 [558]
                0.00    0.00       8/8           shrink_mmap_lock_unavail [613]
-----------------------------------------------

This basically says that shrink_mmap was called 28637 times. All these calls
resulted in 9367145 iterations of its loop (how many pages examined in all).
However, total #of pages skipped due to their zones being above high water mark
is 8586859. That is, 91% of the pages looked at by shrink_mmap is in
balanced  zones.

I understand gprof data can be overwhelming. But, it may be worth getting
a feed back on exactly what's happenening: there's been too many "hunches" of late ;-)
Have a look at:
	
http://reality.sgi.com/ananth_engr/linux.html

It gives the complete gprof file and the "instrumented" filemap.c

ananth.
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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Quintela Carreira Juan J.]

>>>>> "linus" == Linus Torvalds <torvalds@transmeta.com> writes:


linus> in vmscan.c, and that seems to be quite well-behaved too (but if somebody
linus> has the energy to test the two different versions, I'd absolutely love to
linus> hear results..)

Hi Linus, 
   I have tested two versions of the patch (against vanilla
pre7-6), the first was to remove the test altogether (I think this is
from Rajagopal):

--- pre7-6/mm/vmscan.c	Fri May  5 23:58:56 2000
+++ testing/mm/vmscan.c	Mon May  8 23:30:52 2000
@@ -114,8 +114,9 @@
 	 * Don't do any of the expensive stuff if
 	 * we're not really interested in this zone.
 	 */
-	if (!page->zone->zone_wake_kswapd)
+/*	if (!page->zone->zone_wake_kswapd)
 		goto out_unlock;
+*/
 
 	/*
 	 * Ok, it's really dirty. That means that

Second one  is the Linus suggestion, change the test for:

diff -u -urN --exclude=CVS --exclude=*~ --exclude=.#* --exclude=TAGS pre7-6/mm/vmscan.c testing2/mm/vmscan.c
--- pre7-6/mm/vmscan.c	Fri May  5 23:58:56 2000
+++ testing2/mm/vmscan.c	Tue May  9 01:46:08 2000
@@ -114,7 +114,7 @@
 	 * Don't do any of the expensive stuff if
 	 * we're not really interested in this zone.
 	 */
-	if (!page->zone->zone_wake_kswapd)
+	if (page->zone->free_pages > page->zone->pages_high)
 		goto out_unlock;
 
 	/*
and thred one was the classzone-25 patch from Andrea.

The test is one of my tests:
    while (true); do time ./mmap002; done
which the size parameter adjusted to the size of te memory of the
system.

        The results are:
vanilla pre7-6 kills *all* my processes after 2 minutes and a half 
pre7-6 + Rajagopal:  Works quite well, times are stable between 2m20
                     and 3m10 (didn't kill any processes)

pre7-6 + Linus:      Kill all the processes after 3m and a few
                     seconds.

pre7-6 + classzone25: between 2m8 seconds and 2m23.

2.2.15: between 1m50 and 2m15 (the time is quite stable around 1m50)
        It has killed one process in 7 so far.

If you need more information, let me know.  As always comments,
suggestions are welcome.

Later, Juan.

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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Rajagopal Ananthanarayanan]

"Quintela Carreira Juan J." wrote:
> 
> >>>>> "linus" == Linus Torvalds <torvalds@transmeta.com> writes:
> 
> linus> in vmscan.c, and that seems to be quite well-behaved too (but if somebody
> linus> has the energy to test the two different versions, I'd absolutely love to
> linus> hear results..)
> 
> Hi Linus,
>    I have tested two versions of the patch (against vanilla
> pre7-6), the first was to remove the test altogether (I think this is
> from Rajagopal):
> 
> --- pre7-6/mm/vmscan.c  Fri May  5 23:58:56 2000
> +++ testing/mm/vmscan.c Mon May  8 23:30:52 2000
> @@ -114,8 +114,9 @@
>          * Don't do any of the expensive stuff if
>          * we're not really interested in this zone.
>          */
> -       if (!page->zone->zone_wake_kswapd)
> +/*     if (!page->zone->zone_wake_kswapd)
>                 goto out_unlock;
> +*/
> 

I'm having the same experience too. The one thing
that makes stuff better is not to look at the zone at all
in try_to_swap_out (as Juan points out above).

I'm trying to also see if we can do better in shrink_mmap().
Although my gprof statistics say that we can end-up spending
91% of the time skipping pages, I'm not able to comeup with
anything simple to make shrink_mmap behave better ... except
one change which makes swapping a lot less and shrink_mmap
a lot more agressive: don't skip pages based on zone's
high water mark if we are trying hard to free pages (my heuristic
was to stop skipping pages if priority in shrink_mmap was 3; YMMV).
I'm not entirely convinced that this is the right thing to do.

In all, I do think that try_to_swap_out shouldn't skip pages
based on zones. We have now evidence from 3 different "workloads"
in this direction --- my own dbench test, Juan's test above &
Benjamin's "gaming" workload.


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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Linus Torvalds]

On 9 May 2000, Quintela Carreira Juan J. wrote:
> Hi Linus, 
>    I have tested two versions of the patch (against vanilla
> pre7-6), the first was to remove the test altogether (I think this is
> from Rajagopal):

I'll make my current pre7-7 available right away, to head off the
discussion.

I found out the real reason for the problem, and it was quite a lot more
subtle than I originally thought.

The "don't page out pages from zones that don't need it" test is a good
test, but it turns out that it triggers a rather serious problem: the way
the buffer cache dirty page handling is done is by having shrink_mmap() do
a "try_to_free_buffers()" on the pages it encounters that have
"page->buffer" set.

And doing that is quite important, because without that logic the buffers
don't get written to disk in a timely manner, nor do already-written
buffers get refiled to their proper lists. So you end up being "out of
memory" - not because the machine is really out of memory, but because
those buffers have a tendency to stick around if they aren't constantly
looked after by "try_to_free_buffers()".

So the real fix ended up being to re-order the tests in shrink_mmap() a
bit, so that try_to_free_buffers() is called even for pages that are on
a good zone that doesn't need any real balancing..

[ time passes ] 

pre7-7 is there now.

		Linus

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Re: [DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Rajagopal Ananthanarayanan]

Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
	[ ... ]
> 
> The "don't page out pages from zones that don't need it" test is a good
> test, but it turns out that it triggers a rather serious problem: the way
> the buffer cache dirty page handling is done is by having shrink_mmap() do
> a "try_to_free_buffers()" on the pages it encounters that have
> "page->buffer" set.
> 
> And doing that is quite important, because without that logic the buffers
> don't get written to disk in a timely manner, nor do already-written
> buffers get refiled to their proper lists. So you end up being "out of
> memory" - not because the machine is really out of memory, but because
> those buffers have a tendency to stick around if they aren't constantly
> looked after by "try_to_free_buffers()".
> 
> So the real fix ended up being to re-order the tests in shrink_mmap() a
> bit, so that try_to_free_buffers() is called even for pages that are on
> a good zone that doesn't need any real balancing..

Not sure entirely what effect this has, except for freeing underlying
buffer_head's. The page itself is still skipped. Anyway, brief examination
shows that you've changed several things here (in 7-7), so I'll have to go
at it some more time to get a full picture.

> 
> [ time passes ]
> 
> pre7-7 is there now.
> 
>                 Linus

Unfortunately my dbench test really runs bad with pre 7-7.
Quantitively, the amount of memory in "cache" of vmstat
is higher than before. write()'s start failing. 

More later,

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[DATAPOINT] pre7-8 swaps with FREE mem?

[Benjamin Redelings I]

I have an UP PPro, 166 Mhz, 64MB RAM, IDE disk.

1. Pre7-8 swaps a lot.  Firstly, it swaps when I have 12Mb/64Mb memory
free. (just to clarify, I don't mean 'cache', I mean 'free') Secondly,
look at this:

telomere:~> free
             total       used       free     shared    buffers    
cached
Mem:         62780      61360       1420          0        412     
44804
-/+ buffers/cache:      16144      46636
Swap:       128484      38456      90028

The VM is definately balanced towards swapping out.  I'm only running
netscape, and emacs, (and gnome), so there should be minimal swap-out. 
I'm not sure the high swap usage is a result of a large cache, because
the high swap usage started BEFORE memory actually got tight.  So, may
the cache is just taking advantage of the nice, large free chunks of
memory :)

2. Pre7-8 swaps out things that should be left in.  It DOESN"T swap out
the running quake engine this time :)  However, it does swap out chunks
of netscape, while loading it, making it significantly slower. 
Basically, there is not need to do ANY page-in, but there is a
significant page-in rate when load netscape.  This implies that the
wrong pages are swapped out.  (Am I saying something stupid here??)  

RSS  SWAP  MAJFLT
8864 14032 26248 netscape
36   2656  78    xfs
4    2303  59    jserver
6780 2252  13508 X
2372 856   4739  emacs

netscape, emacs, and X should not have been swapped out.
xfs and jserver SHOULD be swapped out. (this is an improvement over
pre7-6)

3. Unlike pre7-6, which basically died, if I tried to run more than a
few programs, pre7-8 is more or less useable, although not perfect (as
in 2), because it DOES swap out unused code :) In can (not well :) run
netscape, mozilla, gimp, quake, and emacs in 64Mb RAM. There is no way
that pre7-6 could get this far.

telomere:~> free
             total       used       free     shared    buffers    
cached
Mem:         62780      61168       1612          0        348     
14992
-/+ buffers/cache:      45828      16952
Swap:       128484      39004      89480

telomere:~> vmstat 1
   procs                      memory    swap          io    
system         cpu
 r  b  w   swpd   free   buff  cache  si  so    bi    bo   in    cs  us 
sy  id
 1  0  0  38560   1484    256  14764  35  31   167    10  151   439 
58   9  33
 5  0  1  38560   1668    276  14664  20   0  3215     0  561   975  65 
35   0
 1  2  0  38560   1584    276  14636 556   0  1596     0  204   514  75 
24   1
 3  0  0  38560   1476    276  14732   0   0    97     0  152   456 
99   1   0
 3  2  0  38556   1536    172  14752 632   0  2902     9  499   850  52 
32  16
 4  0  1  38548   1564    164  14820 440   0   627     0  327   693  70 
28   2
 3  0  0  38540   1212    180  15152 216   0  1337     0  174   447  50 
42   9
 3  2  1  38620   1296    188  15160 1276  84   810    21  352   486 
56  44   0 1  2  0  38616   1248    188  15204 436   0   733     1 
242   465  67  33   0
 4  0  0  38616   1208    192  15244 112   0   345     0  197   535  84 
16   0
 4  0  0  38616   1336    196  15120 196   0   244     0  232   516  69 
21  10
 3  0  0  38616   1192    196  15244  56   0    83     0  172   573 
97   1   2
 3  0  0  38616   1568    196  14916   4   0    53     2  211   548  81 
19   0
 2  0  0  38616   1516    204  14960  36   0   535     0  198   493  86 
14   0
 4  0  0  38616   1224    204  15252 176   0   159     0  184   479 
92   6   2
 4  0  1  38616   1320    216  15164  52   0  1291     0  186   483  79 
21   0

</datapoint>
-BenRI
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PG_referenced and lru_cache (cpu%)...

[Roger Larsson]

Hi,

When _add_to_page_cache adds a page to the lru_cache
it forces it to be referenced.

In addition it will be added as youngest in list.

When a page is needed it is very likely that a lot of
the youngest pages are marked as referenced.

In other cases when a pages is moved to front the
PG_referenced is cleared.

order=0 is the only that tries to search the full list.

When the shrink_mmap finds PG_referenced pages they are
moved to local list young and will not be inserted before
shink_mmap returns, again does not matter...

With "all" possible pages in young, the list is searched
maxloop (256) times... (with a lot of CPU usage)

Conclusion:

I think PG_reference should be cleared in lru_cache_add
and that shrink_mmap should place referenced pages on top
not on an separate list.

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Re: PG_referenced and lru_cache (cpu%)...

[Rik van Riel]

On Sat, 6 May 2000, Roger Larsson wrote:

> When _add_to_page_cache adds a page to the lru_cache
> it forces it to be referenced.
> In addition it will be added as youngest in list.

Which is IMHO a good thing, since the page *was* referenced
and was referenced last.

> When a page is needed it is very likely that a lot of
> the youngest pages are marked as referenced.

> order=0 is the only that tries to search the full list.

No. Referenced pages are not counted, so if we encounter
a lot of them we will happily age them all without decreasing
the value of count.

> When the shrink_mmap finds PG_referenced pages they are
> moved to local list young and will not be inserted before
> shink_mmap returns, again does not matter...

So the next time shrink_mmap() is called, we'll free the
page.

> Conclusion:

	[snip]

regards,

Rik
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Re: PG_referenced and lru_cache (cpu%)...

[Roger Larsson]

Rik van Riel wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 6 May 2000, Roger Larsson wrote:
> 
> > When _add_to_page_cache adds a page to the lru_cache
> > it forces it to be referenced.
> > In addition it will be added as youngest in list.
> 
> Which is IMHO a good thing, since the page *was* referenced
> and was referenced last.

Ok, I can buy that.

> 
> > When a page is needed it is very likely that a lot of
> > the youngest pages are marked as referenced.
> 
> > order=0 is the only that tries to search the full list.
> 
> No. Referenced pages are not counted, so if we encounter
> a lot of them we will happily age them all without decreasing
> the value of count.

But if it is first in the order==0 run that they are found...

Extreme example:
Suppose all DMA pages are referenced and last in list. No other zones
with pressure.
order = [6..1] will not find them.
order = 0 will, but since they are referenced they are put in young.
shrink_mmap will loop (256 times) without finding them...
And return 0.
order is 0
=> no more shrink_mmap will be called...
=> the pages were not found.

I would feel a lot safer if the young pages was inserted at top
of lru_cache instead of in another local list.
With them in lru_cache they will be searched if it needs to
loop that far...

/RogerL

PS.
  This feels a little like archaeology with a new algorithm
  soon to be released...
  But at leas I can learn a lot from it - Rik thanks for your replies!
DS

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[DATAPOINT] pre7-6 will not swap

[Benjamin Redelings I]

Hi,
	I just compiled pre7-6.  It seems more useable than pre7-5.  However,
it basically does not swap.  The first time there is any memory
pressure, it swaps 32 pages (128k), and it never swaps again. 
	In similar circumstances, pre7-4 has gotten up to 30Mb swapped.  There
are many unused daemons running in my 64Mb RAM.

	I also reverted to
  count = nr_threads / (priority +1)
 	though I didn't check carefully what this did.  Anyway, it doesn't
seem to make a difference.	

</datapoint>

-BenRI

UP PPro, IDE, 64MB RAM
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