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[82.69.66.36]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-4356997e6dasm31642908f8f.32.2026.01.20.11.30.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 20 Jan 2026 11:30:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2026 19:30:27 +0000 From: David Laight To: Gregory Price Cc: Li Zhe , akpm@linux-foundation.org, ankur.a.arora@oracle.com, dan.j.williams@intel.com, dave@stgolabs.net, david@kernel.org, fvdl@google.com, joao.m.martins@oracle.com, jonathan.cameron@huawei.com, linux-cxl@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, mhocko@suse.com, mjguzik@gmail.com, muchun.song@linux.dev, osalvador@suse.de, raghavendra.kt@amd.com, wangzhou1@hisilicon.com, zhanjie9@hisilicon.com Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 0/8] Introduce a huge-page pre-zeroing mechanism Message-ID: <20260120193027.3d160211@pumpkin> In-Reply-To: References: <20260120094744.5d92e34a@pumpkin> <20260120103949.7673-1-lizhe.67@bytedance.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.1.1 (GTK 3.24.38; arm-unknown-linux-gnueabihf) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspam-User: X-Stat-Signature: ammtd6ijy3cmmzrd8j8bdd4yjd881k9e X-Rspamd-Server: rspam09 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 3B05DA0007 X-HE-Tag: 1768937431-494830 X-HE-Meta: U2FsdGVkX184mKw4KuocFf8gqGelmujWdyVfGHEbGYaw/aoN9HGg4LnacID2o4o50hfHKah6bb3Y20IETqhCmHAhFjqA9vqRvO/5NAnFpSH7hqZBN+wCDAjBQ0z8rq8Ca6Yw+/8WDZTcO8xlmv62BxmMJjTbfNMtm+9AJbrNmwLVdDQ+QE7C/1tqDxCuwSCX/mheguRmxStU9XG9Lhd4wwTfYqGB76aRqXfVnmnO9wYeccumU+pDmgQ+O2iR/ipYnWQX4jm2+UNHnlonFXaYmV8m5Po+RWo8Ar7qt0AYbPvg7f7mLcFjusaeliWCjNt6yGwCngRXu9C6Ucful/pWfwC5Ou3IWufmqNI4j3AtgvIFjGZQDcF2Ef0cz8MxYzBdd9VPHD7JfjEtZp21ju7L4UdloVXTx1tqGbYLURVtM08CsRo5PH2ggSimV4sVbPaZuoTalHYrF2g565/jG+QTkX52uOjOC6uSHX2rokEwdmGw/l2wUnMRgEjWgwLBgCK6mDaQVVf494Qi//TloQOSb3MQtenBMOSMiJJF76HBk/ksLF20wjch6m/hNeHC0WeOCCF9IxAlqmQpCINQ3hEq1KpFKRXcfkdorSFJeU4Gesn/KddzQUDe4xghV6l2dKPce8pE7sW2rPEEB/KyUlJznJciM+DiC8/RpqsEahjNS6RJlBVdIA4zLLxAEQHK24bDviO63CLFjjh4/sGTkmnzoANvIiQ42naxTa3rikKmKFibfHV8xMhOYiQ1PvqMtUZzjBFej5dQAzaUmbi27mujN7sajGOzJmNNwOvMaPMNmXuVLcakMb3IlsP7mMcGzL5mdUemHuR90mC6ZhsuWbePnMvTiE/8Z9829B2qMyqnbiVku4QJNTora2jmpCUDGWxJDDymiphhWbyutZl0TV+anB9MVJby8ScK96xDTKx/TPQMlnFwbLefpp/EsRs70XtGCuAEPjd21jhtI+SscmP /i/iDQ9I kzypX4VFBS6fXRmVpAjar6NuKcZ9kfqafHaqqbc8GwMcrritNC7k6kTy09PREfoeWFdkSIH0rQPvMZigzX4t641FYTx3Nug1S4vqROL8N/LlM70uGbGtiDZeoP5KRMy5ME6KYLH7OsQNzOsxDz/zvfLVG7QfSMeIMFjtzEnNKRFwfjfGia+BLq7bSdwCNltUyFBNCgp011gLG1ufNEay/t+gZN9a26ydCQ3TxuoU8rzQOiUH/B+bEuE3v8DL3Z07dxefA6xZ1Uo3GHv6/UGOSWCpHw2j08+EWkidLI0Q3UhOWXJuv1giRn9h6vXY9c6Ua6Y0Wy7KoQq5QkJp4ICXfmY98c6BNxjKsxX+P3Nc7fG2BYBCGu8g3qid2ppXQt4RD6CGIulLdoZImT0xAorLZlNdEW9tnaHZH55iEFXdKql9ujdAT/bh9EOwdbh3UKQSgBt2p3ZfE84v0/TG3SazOcj/VflyaoXzv4Ei6uQj/4LGueeprMdonrYES5BulHkU5t7d75OYg79/16SH1EQXl+YrQJ86O1hlrpHVi X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.2.4 Sender: owner-linux-mm@kvack.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: owner-majordomo@kvack.org List-ID: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Tue, 20 Jan 2026 13:18:19 -0500 Gregory Price wrote: > On Tue, Jan 20, 2026 at 06:39:48PM +0800, Li Zhe wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Jan 2026 09:47:44 +0000, david.laight.linux@gmail.com wrote: > > =20 > > > On Tue, 20 Jan 2026 14:27:06 +0800 > > > "Li Zhe" wrote: > > > =20 > > > > In light of the preceding discussion, we appear to have reached the > > > > following understanding: > > > >=20 > > > > (1) At present we prefer to mitigate slow application startup (e.g., > > > > VM creation) by zeroing huge pages at the moment they are freed > > > > (init_on_free). The principal benefit is that user space gains the > > > > performance improvement without deploying any additional user space > > > > daemon. =20 > > >=20 > > > Am I missing something? > > > If userspace does: > > > $ program_a; program_b > > > and pages used by program_a are zeroed when it exits you get the delay > > > for zeroing all the pages it used before program_b starts. > > > OTOH if the zeroing is deferred program_b only needs to zero the pages > > > it needs to start (and there may be some lurking). =20 > >=20 > > Under the init_on-free approach, improving the speed of zeroing may > > indeed prove necessary. > >=20 > > However, I believe we should first reach consensus on adopting > > =E2=80=9Cinit_on_free=E2=80=9D as the solution to slow application star= tup before > > turning to performance tuning. > > =20 >=20 > His point was init_on_free may not actually reduce any delays on serial > applications, and can actually introduce additional delays. >=20 > Example > ------- > program_a: alloc_hugepages(10); > exit(); >=20 > program b: alloc_hugepages(5); > exit(); >=20 > /* Run programs in serial */ > sh: program_a && program_b >=20 > in zero_on_alloc(): > program_a eats zero(10) cost on startup > program_b eats zero(5) cost on startup > Overall zero(15) cost to start program_b >=20 > in zero_on_free() > program_a eats zero(10) cost on startup Do you get that cost? - wont all the unused memory be zeros. > program_a eats zero(10) cost on exit > program_b eats zero(0) cost on startup > Overall zero(20) cost to start program_b >=20 > zero_on_free is worse by zero(5) > ------- >=20 > This is a trivial example, but it's unclear zero_on_free actually > provides a benefit. You have to know ahead of time what the runtime > behavior, pre-zeroed count, and allocation pattern (0->10->5->...) would > be to determine whether there's an actual reduction in startup time. >=20 > But just trivially, starting from the base case of no pages being > zeroed, you're just injecting an additional zero(X) cost if program_a() > consumes more hugepages than program_b(). I'd consider a different test: for c in $(jot 1 1000); do program_a; done Regardless of whether you zero on alloc or free all the zeroing is in line. Move it to a low priority thread (that uses a non-aggressive loop) and there will be reasonable chance of there being pre-zeroed pages available. (Most DMA is far too aggressive...) If you zero on free it might also be a waste of time. Maybe the memory is next used to read data from a disk file. David >=20 > Long way of saying the shift from alloc to free seems heuristic-y and > you need stronger analysis / better data to show this change is actually > beneficial in the general case. >=20 > ~Gregory