Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1)

Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1)

[Matthew Hawkins]

On 7/31/07, Jacob Braun <jwbraun@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/30/07, kriko <kristjan.ugrin@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I would try the new cfs how it performs, but it seems that nvidia drivers
> > doesn't compile successfully under 2.6.23-rc1.
> > http://files.myopera.com/kriko/files/nvidia-installer.log
> >
> > If someone has the solution, please share.
>
> There is a patch for the nvidia drivers here:
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/attachment.cgi?id=125959

The ATI drivers (current 8.39.4) were broken by
commit e21ea246bce5bb93dd822de420172ec280aed492
Author: Martin Schwidefsky <schwidefsky@de.ibm.com>

Bad call on the "nobody was using these", Martin :(

-- 
Matt

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Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1)

[Peter Zijlstra]

On Tue, 2007-07-31 at 02:25 +1000, Matthew Hawkins wrote:
> On 7/31/07, Jacob Braun <jwbraun@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 7/30/07, kriko <kristjan.ugrin@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I would try the new cfs how it performs, but it seems that nvidia drivers
> > > doesn't compile successfully under 2.6.23-rc1.
> > > http://files.myopera.com/kriko/files/nvidia-installer.log
> > >
> > > If someone has the solution, please share.
> >
> > There is a patch for the nvidia drivers here:
> > http://bugs.gentoo.org/attachment.cgi?id=125959
> 
> The ATI drivers (current 8.39.4) were broken by
> commit e21ea246bce5bb93dd822de420172ec280aed492
> Author: Martin Schwidefsky <schwidefsky@de.ibm.com>
> 
> Bad call on the "nobody was using these", Martin :(

Nobody in the upstream kernel did, and that is what matters. If you care
about your kernel code get it upstream.

As for breaking binary crap, thats a bonus. Break them hard, break them
often.

Kudos to Martin.

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Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1)

[Kyle Rose]

> As for breaking binary crap, thats a bonus. Break them hard, break them
> often.
>   
I think there's a big difference in philosophy between "break binary
drivers if you want to make a legitimate change for whatever reason" and
"break binary drivers just to be a pain in the ass to the developers and
users of said drivers."  I think most people here agree with the first.
It's unclear to me how many here agree with the second, but I know it's
at least one. ;-)

Kyle

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Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1)

[Martin Schwidefsky]

On Tue, 2007-07-31 at 02:25 +1000, Matthew Hawkins wrote:
> On 7/31/07, Jacob Braun <jwbraun@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 7/30/07, kriko <kristjan.ugrin@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I would try the new cfs how it performs, but it seems that nvidia drivers
> > > doesn't compile successfully under 2.6.23-rc1.
> > > http://files.myopera.com/kriko/files/nvidia-installer.log
> > >
> > > If someone has the solution, please share.
> >
> > There is a patch for the nvidia drivers here:
> > http://bugs.gentoo.org/attachment.cgi?id=125959
> 
> The ATI drivers (current 8.39.4) were broken by
> commit e21ea246bce5bb93dd822de420172ec280aed492
> Author: Martin Schwidefsky <schwidefsky@de.ibm.com>
> 
> Bad call on the "nobody was using these", Martin :(

Do we care ? The code should be replaced with ptep_get_and_clear +
pte_modify anyway..

-- 
blue skies,
  Martin.

"Reality continues to ruin my life." - Calvin.


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Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1)

[Rashkae]

Martin Schwidefsky wrote:

> 
> Do we care ? The code should be replaced with ptep_get_and_clear +
> pte_modify anyway..
> 

Since the general direction of this thread was for people to test 3D 
game performance with the shiny new CFS cpu scheduler, I would say yes, 
we do care if people with the only 2 types of gaming caliber Video cards 
can get said video cards working, right now, with said shiny new kernel.

Yes yes, I know, kernel devs don't care if they break binary drivers... 
and in principle, I agree with that philosophy.. but it's still damn 
inconvenient at times :)

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Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1)

[Arjan van de Ven]

On Tue, 2007-07-31 at 02:25 +1000, Matthew Hawkins wrote:
> On 7/31/07, Jacob Braun <jwbraun@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 7/30/07, kriko <kristjan.ugrin@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I would try the new cfs how it performs, but it seems that nvidia drivers
> > > doesn't compile successfully under 2.6.23-rc1.
> > > http://files.myopera.com/kriko/files/nvidia-installer.log
> > >
> > > If someone has the solution, please share.
> >
> > There is a patch for the nvidia drivers here:
> > http://bugs.gentoo.org/attachment.cgi?id=125959
> 
> The ATI drivers (current 8.39.4) were broken by
> commit e21ea246bce5bb93dd822de420172ec280aed492
> Author: Martin Schwidefsky <schwidefsky@de.ibm.com>


some fo these binary drivers do really really bad stuff (esp the AMD
ones are infamous for that) and it's no surprise they might throw of a
new scheduler. In fact, that's a bonus, some of those hacks are
workarounds for older (often 2.4) scheduler corner cases and should just
be removed from the driver to get better performance. Holding back linux
for such hacky junk in binary drivers would be the absolute worst thing
to do; even for people who insist on using these drivers over the open
source ones, since the next rev of these drivers can now use the new
scheduler and actually be faster with all the workarounds removed.

Very likely the best thing to do is to contact the supplier of the
driver (AMD or Nvidia) and ask them to fix it.....



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Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1)

[Christoph Hellwig]

On Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 02:25:47AM +1000, Matthew Hawkins wrote:
> 
> The ATI drivers (current 8.39.4) were broken by
> commit e21ea246bce5bb93dd822de420172ec280aed492
> Author: Martin Schwidefsky <schwidefsky@de.ibm.com>
> 
> Bad call on the "nobody was using these", Martin :(

Sorry to use foul language once again after a while, but:

	Fuck you Martin!

not only is complaining about illegal binary crap totally offtopic
on this list, and making youself a fool for using that piece of shit
is annoying enough, but don't even try to badmouth Martin for doing
important and needed cleanups.  And now get out of here!

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Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?

[Roland Dreier]

I think you meant to yell at Matthew, not Martin ;)

 - R.

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Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?

[Christoph Hellwig]

On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 12:53:41PM -0700, Roland Dreier wrote:
>  > 	Fuck you Martin!
> 
> I think you meant to yell at Matthew, not Martin ;)

Yes, of course :)  Also thanks to all the people pointing that out
in private.

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Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?

[Matthew Hawkins]

On 7/31/07, Roland Dreier <rdreier@cisco.com> wrote:
>  >      Fuck you Martin!
>
> I think you meant to yell at Matthew, not Martin ;)

What's amusing about this is he's yelling at me for something I didn't
do, can't even get my name right, and has the audacity to claim that
*I* am the one looking like a fool!  While we're descending into
primary school theatrics, may I just say "takes one to know one" ;-)

I took the time to track down what caused a breakage - in an "illegal
binary driver" (not against the law here, though defamation certainly
is...) no less.  And contacted the vendor (separately).  Other people
on desktop machines with an ATI card using the fglrx driver may have
been interested to know that they can't do the benchmarking some
people here on lkml and -mm are asking for with a current 2.6.23 git
kernel, hence my post.

Martin's cleanup patch is good and I never claimed otherwise, I just
said the comment on the commit was a bad call (as there are users of
that interface).  Certainly ATI should fix their dodgy drivers.
That's been the cry of the community for a long time...

-- 
Matt

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Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?

[Martin Schwidefsky]

On Tue, 2007-07-31 at 13:07 +1000, Matthew Hawkins wrote:
> On 7/31/07, Roland Dreier <rdreier@cisco.com> wrote:
> >  >      Fuck you Martin!
> >
> > I think you meant to yell at Matthew, not Martin ;)
> 
> What's amusing about this is he's yelling at me for something I didn't
> do, can't even get my name right, and has the audacity to claim that
> *I* am the one looking like a fool!  While we're descending into
> primary school theatrics, may I just say "takes one to know one" ;-)

Pouring oil into the fire ?

> I took the time to track down what caused a breakage - in an "illegal
> binary driver" (not against the law here, though defamation certainly
> is...) no less.  And contacted the vendor (separately).  Other people
> on desktop machines with an ATI card using the fglrx driver may have
> been interested to know that they can't do the benchmarking some
> people here on lkml and -mm are asking for with a current 2.6.23 git
> kernel, hence my post.

To inform the vendor and to post a warning about the issue on lkml was
the right thing to do. It is the wording of your post that obviously
irked some people.

> Martin's cleanup patch is good and I never claimed otherwise, I just
> said the comment on the commit was a bad call (as there are users of
> that interface).  Certainly ATI should fix their dodgy drivers.
> That's been the cry of the community for a long time...

The commit message could have been better. The correct thing to say
would have been "Nobody in the official kernel is using
ptep_test_and_clear_dirty and ptep_clear_flush_dirty."
nvidia will have to adapt their binary driver. This is not the first
time it breaks and it won't be the last time. We do not really have a
problem and we should all calm down and put that issue to rest.

-- 
blue skies,
  Martin.

"Reality continues to ruin my life." - Calvin.


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Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?

[Christoph Hellwig]

Matthew, odd off.  ait binary crap is totally offtopic here on the list,
and beeing prude for beeing a fuckhead and holding development back doesn't
exactly helpe either.  Go back to your -ck fanboy land and shut up now.

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Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?

[Adrian Bunk]

On Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 01:07:30PM +1000, Matthew Hawkins wrote:
>...
> I took the time to track down what caused a breakage - in an "illegal
> binary driver" (not against the law here, though defamation certainly
> is...) no less.  And contacted the vendor (separately).  Other people
> on desktop machines with an ATI card using the fglrx driver may have
> been interested to know that they can't do the benchmarking some
> people here on lkml and -mm are asking for with a current 2.6.23 git
> kernel, hence my post.
>...

But there's not much value in benchmarking if an important part of the 
performance critical code is in some undebuggable driver...

> Matt

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

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Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?

[Matthew Hawkins]

On 8/1/07, Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:
> But there's not much value in benchmarking if an important part of the
> performance critical code is in some undebuggable driver...

In this case we don't care about the performance of the video driver.
This isn't a race to see who can get the most fps.  The driver can be
thought of as a black box so long as comparative benchmarks are done
with the same driver.

What we're looking for primarily is progress or regress in
interactivity under load with different cpu schedulers, and secondly
the effect of swap prefetch.  The video driver is irrelevant -
especially considering the people doing this testing have a wide
variety of video cards.  This is why I have included some commentary
on "feel" because that's the important part.

Ingo specifically asked for CFS v20 in 2.6.23 to be included in the
testing (its not available separately on his website), hence the need
to be able to bring up one's usual working environment under that
kernel also so the results aren't skewed by driver artifacts.

For my next trick, I'll attempt to quantify the "feel" bits using
scheduler statistics.
While riding a unicycle.

Okay, scratch the unicycle ;-)

-- 
Matt

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Re: [ck] Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?

[Adrian Bunk]

On Wed, Aug 01, 2007 at 04:19:36PM +1000, Matthew Hawkins wrote:
> On 8/1/07, Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> wrote:
> > But there's not much value in benchmarking if an important part of the
> > performance critical code is in some undebuggable driver...
> 
> In this case we don't care about the performance of the video driver.
> This isn't a race to see who can get the most fps.  The driver can be
> thought of as a black box so long as comparative benchmarks are done
> with the same driver.
>...

What if your "black box" e.g. uses the BKL?

> Matt

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

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