From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.kernel.org (aws-us-west-2-korg-mail-1.web.codeaurora.org [10.30.226.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6D061EEA56; Thu, 20 Feb 2025 22:08:34 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1740089314; cv=none; b=LeO4+qgXqUCKmDx8vkq+jpQu3V7rJ7EW4yd2JtCL9ZajADcbESP2gE959RBJqRWJh6z0DH26Oq0CptUayvPHEJTku+TSmxOb+l0tTOQkIPOYfNvzT9IVgg0chJ7eH0soDLvk+BlQC4ccujgu/dG58SDFw3cRkntKR60GgkL7deg= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1740089314; c=relaxed/simple; bh=KNC8/ble1a51wEJCVVgUKrJKL/UmcG6qjNPA3yY3AFE=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To; b=lAxSoEj7L2O6n7vmU93Yl/COaFaNOH69pI5A6VtdOpw5t5uB2b4wvEBcErLYp/jdk2+42G16R0mnaFwJjAvp3G5mQZiqlyXsqI1nj7xv++S2j97VJfKFKAqh7iBDre//22+F8w+WuySN1OHrlpmLEMSeGWmCmDkhy7IGzM7iZQA= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b=js8iXzQs; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b="js8iXzQs" Received: by smtp.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2260DC4CED1; Thu, 20 Feb 2025 22:08:34 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kernel.org; s=k20201202; t=1740089314; bh=KNC8/ble1a51wEJCVVgUKrJKL/UmcG6qjNPA3yY3AFE=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Reply-To:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=js8iXzQsnrwsQPyaQ06mGtfEgGiKIenWUNo0Kd5B/+FBImGB4NNtCGRGh22blFZaT 9SibicOYQ/JrmhmZHwTgwoMnNY4Pyyye3lGLxY565HtXJ++PzyfDSkWZGBb+s50qX4 y6FetYaYiakEwhwhgw60DwwtEjeLMYcPOcNZ0iwfJaawo4DuSjBpWm92vMHoESvDIO V6IXyILiGtVY0lXZ3nO7myoFY2qDQ8Hm/zK+42TqfVr1vTf1mSH10pCbW8NZ+eNcRg m9ZbTsAz4tl0FVMdm/BRhd1VgAqcp6ipNikIVbxCdad2v8A+WlRIb4Cu0r5g/S8UtY FTQpvkSGAnj2Q== Received: by paulmck-ThinkPad-P17-Gen-1.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C4155CE0B34; Thu, 20 Feb 2025 14:08:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 14:08:33 -0800 From: "Paul E. McKenney" To: Martin Uecker Cc: Greg KH , Boqun Feng , "H. Peter Anvin" , Miguel Ojeda , Christoph Hellwig , rust-for-linux , Linus Torvalds , David Airlie , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, ksummit@lists.linux.dev Subject: Re: Rust kernel policy Message-ID: Reply-To: paulmck@kernel.org References: <326CC09B-8565-4443-ACC5-045092260677@zytor.com> <2025021954-flaccid-pucker-f7d9@gregkh> <4e316b01634642cf4fbb087ec8809d93c4b7822c.camel@tugraz.at> <2025022024-blooper-rippling-2667@gregkh> <1d43700546b82cf035e24d192e1f301c930432a3.camel@tugraz.at> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1d43700546b82cf035e24d192e1f301c930432a3.camel@tugraz.at> On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 09:57:29AM +0100, Martin Uecker wrote: > Am Donnerstag, dem 20.02.2025 um 08:10 +0100 schrieb Greg KH: > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 08:03:02AM +0100, Martin Uecker wrote: > > > Am Mittwoch, dem 19.02.2025 um 06:39 +0100 schrieb Greg KH: > > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 07:04:59PM -0800, Boqun Feng wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 04:58:27PM -0800, H. Peter Anvin wrote: > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm all for moving our C codebase toward making these types of problems > > > > impossible to hit, the work that Kees and Gustavo and others are doing > > > > here is wonderful and totally needed, we have 30 million lines of C code > > > > that isn't going anywhere any year soon. That's a worthy effort and is > > > > not going to stop and should not stop no matter what. > > > > > > It seems to me that these efforts do not see nearly as much attention > > > as they deserve. > > > > What more do you think needs to be done here? The LF, and other > > companies, fund developers explicitly to work on this effort. Should we > > be doing more, and if so, what can we do better? > > Kees communicates with the GCC side and sometimes this leads to > improvements, e.g. counted_by (I was peripherily involved in the > GCC implementation). But I think much much more could be done, > if there was a collaboration between compilers, the ISO C working > group, and the kernel community to design and implement such > extensions and to standardize them in ISO C. > > > > > > I also would like to point out that there is not much investments > > > done on C compiler frontends (I started to fix bugs in my spare time > > > in GCC because nobody fixed the bugs I filed), and the kernel  > > > community also is not currently involved in ISO C standardization. > > > > There are kernel developers involved in the C standard committee work, > > one of them emails a few of us short summaries of what is going on every > > few months. Again, is there something there that you think needs to be > > done better, and if so, what can we do? > > > > But note, ISO standards work is really rough work, I wouldn't recommend > > it for anyone :) > > I am a member of the ISO C working group. Yes it it can be painful, but > it is also interesting and people a generally very nice. > > There is currently no kernel developer actively involved, but this would > be very helpful. > > (Paul McKenney is involved in C++ regarding atomics and Miguel is > also following what we do.) Sadly, I must pick my battles extremely carefully. So additional people from the Linux-kernel community being involved in standards work would be a very good thing from my viewpoint. Thanx, Paul