From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from wp530.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp530.webpack.hosteurope.de [80.237.130.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02353568B for ; Thu, 7 Sep 2023 11:18:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [2a02:8108:8980:2478:8cde:aa2c:f324:937e]; authenticated by wp530.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1qeD1n-0005f3-UN; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 13:18:28 +0200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2023 13:18:27 +0200 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [MAINTAINERS/KERNEL SUMMIT] Trust and maintenance of file systems Content-Language: en-US, de-DE To: Christian Brauner Cc: Matthew Wilcox , Steven Rostedt , Dave Chinner , Guenter Roeck , Christoph Hellwig , ksummit@lists.linux.dev, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org References: <8718a8a3-1e62-0e2b-09d0-7bce3155b045@roeck-us.net> <20230906215327.18a45c89@gandalf.local.home> <20230906225139.6ffe953c@gandalf.local.home> <20230907-kauern-kopfkissen-d8147fb40469@brauner> From: Thorsten Leemhuis Autocrypt: addr=linux@leemhuis.info; keydata= xsFNBFJ4AQ0BEADCz16x4kl/YGBegAsYXJMjFRi3QOr2YMmcNuu1fdsi3XnM+xMRaukWby47 JcsZYLDKRHTQ/Lalw9L1HI3NRwK+9ayjg31wFdekgsuPbu4x5RGDIfyNpd378Upa8SUmvHik apCnzsxPTEE4Z2KUxBIwTvg+snEjgZ03EIQEi5cKmnlaUynNqv3xaGstx5jMCEnR2X54rH8j QPvo2l5/79Po58f6DhxV2RrOrOjQIQcPZ6kUqwLi6EQOi92NS9Uy6jbZcrMqPIRqJZ/tTKIR OLWsEjNrc3PMcve+NmORiEgLFclN8kHbPl1tLo4M5jN9xmsa0OZv3M0katqW8kC1hzR7mhz+ Rv4MgnbkPDDO086HjQBlS6Zzo49fQB2JErs5nZ0mwkqlETu6emhxneAMcc67+ZtTeUj54K2y Iu8kk6ghaUAfgMqkdIzeSfhO8eURMhvwzSpsqhUs7pIj4u0TPN8OFAvxE/3adoUwMaB+/plk sNe9RsHHPV+7LGADZ6OzOWWftk34QLTVTcz02bGyxLNIkhY+vIJpZWX9UrfGdHSiyYThHCIy /dLz95b9EG+1tbCIyNynr9TjIOmtLOk7ssB3kL3XQGgmdQ+rJ3zckJUQapLKP2YfBi+8P1iP rKkYtbWk0u/FmCbxcBA31KqXQZoR4cd1PJ1PDCe7/DxeoYMVuwARAQABzSdUaG9yc3RlbiBM ZWVtaHVpcyA8bGludXhAbGVlbWh1aXMuaW5mbz7CwZQEEwEKAD4CGwMFCwkIBwMFFQoJCAsF FgIDAQACHgECF4AWIQSoq8a+lZZX4oPULXVytubvTFg9LQUCX31PIwUJFmtPkwAKCRBytubv TFg9LWsyD/4t3g4i2YVp8RoKAcOut0AZ7/uLSqlm8Jcbb+LeeuzjY9T3mQ4ZX8cybc1jRlsL JMYL8GD3a53/+bXCDdk2HhQKUwBJ9PUDbfWa2E/pnqeJeX6naLn1LtMJ78G9gPeG81dX5Yq+ g/2bLXyWefpejlaefaM0GviCt00kG4R/mJJpHPKIPxPbOPY2REzWPoHXJpi7vTOA2R8HrFg/ QJbnA25W55DzoxlRb/nGZYG4iQ+2Eplkweq3s3tN88MxzNpsxZp475RmzgcmQpUtKND7Pw+8 zTDPmEzkHcUChMEmrhgWc2OCuAu3/ezsw7RnWV0k9Pl5AGROaDqvARUtopQ3yEDAdV6eil2z TvbrokZQca2808v2rYO3TtvtRMtmW/M/yyR233G/JSNos4lODkCwd16GKjERYj+sJsW4/hoZ RQiJQBxjnYr+p26JEvghLE1BMnTK24i88Oo8v+AngR6JBxwH7wFuEIIuLCB9Aagb+TKsf+0c HbQaHZj+wSY5FwgKi6psJxvMxpRpLqPsgl+awFPHARktdPtMzSa+kWMhXC4rJahBC5eEjNmP i23DaFWm8BE9LNjdG8Yl5hl7Zx0mwtnQas7+z6XymGuhNXCOevXVEqm1E42fptYMNiANmrpA OKRF+BHOreakveezlpOz8OtUhsew9b/BsAHXBCEEOuuUg87BTQRSeAENARAAzu/3satWzly6 +Lqi5dTFS9+hKvFMtdRb/vW4o9CQsMqL2BJGoE4uXvy3cancvcyodzTXCUxbesNP779JqeHy s7WkF2mtLVX2lnyXSUBm/ONwasuK7KLz8qusseUssvjJPDdw8mRLAWvjcsYsZ0qgIU6kBbvY ckUWkbJj/0kuQCmmulRMcaQRrRYrk7ZdUOjaYmjKR+UJHljxLgeregyiXulRJxCphP5migoy ioa1eset8iF9fhb+YWY16X1I3TnucVCiXixzxwn3uwiVGg28n+vdfZ5lackCOj6iK4+lfzld z4NfIXK+8/R1wD9yOj1rr3OsjDqOaugoMxgEFOiwhQDiJlRKVaDbfmC1G5N1YfQIn90znEYc M7+Sp8Rc5RUgN5yfuwyicifIJQCtiWgjF8ttcIEuKg0TmGb6HQHAtGaBXKyXGQulD1CmBHIW zg7bGge5R66hdbq1BiMX5Qdk/o3Sr2OLCrxWhqMdreJFLzboEc0S13BCxVglnPqdv5sd7veb 0az5LGS6zyVTdTbuPUu4C1ZbstPbuCBwSwe3ERpvpmdIzHtIK4G9iGIR3Seo0oWOzQvkFn8m 2k6H2/Delz9IcHEefSe5u0GjIA18bZEt7R2k8CMZ84vpyWOchgwXK2DNXAOzq4zwV8W4TiYi FiIVXfSj185vCpuE7j0ugp0AEQEAAcLBfAQYAQoAJgIbDBYhBKirxr6Vllfig9QtdXK25u9M WD0tBQJffU8wBQkWa0+jAAoJEHK25u9MWD0tv+0P/A47x8r+hekpuF2KvPpGi3M6rFpdPfeO RpIGkjQWk5M+oF0YH3vtb0+92J7LKfJwv7GIy2PZO2svVnIeCOvXzEM/7G1n5zmNMYGZkSyf x9dnNCjNl10CmuTYud7zsd3cXDku0T+Ow5Dhnk6l4bbJSYzFEbz3B8zMZGrs9EhqNzTLTZ8S Mznmtkxcbb3f/o5SW9NhH60mQ23bB3bBbX1wUQAmMjaDQ/Nt5oHWHN0/6wLyF4lStBGCKN9a TLp6E3100BuTCUCrQf9F3kB7BC92VHvobqYmvLTCTcbxFS4JNuT+ZyV+xR5JiV+2g2HwhxWW uC88BtriqL4atyvtuybQT+56IiiU2gszQ+oxR/1Aq+VZHdUeC6lijFiQblqV6EjenJu+pR9A 7EElGPPmYdO1WQbBrmuOrFuO6wQrbo0TbUiaxYWyoM9cA7v7eFyaxgwXBSWKbo/bcAAViqLW ysaCIZqWxrlhHWWmJMvowVMkB92uPVkxs5IMhSxHS4c2PfZ6D5kvrs3URvIc6zyOrgIaHNzR 8AF4PXWPAuZu1oaG/XKwzMqN/Y/AoxWrCFZNHE27E1RrMhDgmyzIzWQTffJsVPDMQqDfLBhV ic3b8Yec+Kn+ExIF5IuLfHkUgIUs83kDGGbV+wM8NtlGmCXmatyavUwNCXMsuI24HPl7gV2h n7RI In-Reply-To: <20230907-kauern-kopfkissen-d8147fb40469@brauner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;linux@leemhuis.info;1694085516;df1c0e52; X-HE-SMSGID: 1qeD1n-0005f3-UN On 07.09.23 12:29, Christian Brauner wrote: >> So why can't that work similarly for unmaintained file systems? We could >> even establish the rule that Linus should only apply patches to some >> parts of the kernel if the test suite for unmaintained file systems >> succeeded without regressions. And only accept new file system code if a > > Reading this mail scared me. Sorry about that, I can fully understand that. It's just that some statements in this thread sounded a whole lot like "filesystems want to opt-out of the no regression rule" to me. That's why I at some point thought I had to speak up. > The list of reiserfs bugs alone is crazy. Well, we regularly remove drivers or even support for whole archs without getting into conflict with the "no regressions" rule, so I'd say that should be possible for file systems as well. And I think for reiserfs we are on track with that. But what about hfsplus? From hch's initial mail of this thread it sounds like that is something users would miss. So removing it without a very strong need[1] seems wrong to me. That's why I got involved in this discussion. [1] e.g. data loss or damage (as mentioned in my earlier mail) or substantial security problems (forgot to mentioned them in my earlier mail) > I think it's also worth clarifying something: > Right now, everyone who does fs wide changes does their absolute best to > account for every filesytem that's in the tree. And for people not > familiar or even refusing to care about any other filesystems the > maintainers and reviewers will remind them about consequences for other > filesystems as far as they have that knowledge. And that's already a > major task. > > For every single fs/ wide change we try to make absolutely sure that if > it regresses anything - even the deadest-of-dead filesystems - it will > be fixed as soon as we get a report. [...] I know. Big thx to everyone doing the work here! > But it is very scary to think that we might be put even more under the > yoke of dead filesystems. That is not my intent. I just want to ensure the "no regressions" rule is not forgotten in this discussion. >> test suite that is easy to integrate in CI systems exists (e.g. >> something smaller and faster than what the ext4 and xfs developers run >> regularly, but smaller and faster should likely be good enough here). > > The big question of course is who is going to do that? > [...] > That'll be a fulltime job for quite a while I would expect. Yeah, I know. :-/ Ciao, Thorsten