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a=ZLUrnzr5YNwA:10 a=kfoj1ThlphoA:10 a=zosCLfkllANJ8uAOTg2h:22 cc=ntf awl=host:12066 X-Proofpoint-GUID: _OoKjERSqw9s3NeZKhFwGkwfJkrl_pGj +cc Steven Apologies, I meant to +cc you here as I mention an issue you encountered, and forgot of course :>) Cheers, Lorenzo On Tue, Aug 05, 2025 at 06:55:29PM +0100, Lorenzo Stoakes wrote: > On Tue, Aug 05, 2025 at 12:43:38PM -0400, James Bottomley wrote: > > On Tue, 2025-08-05 at 17:03 +0100, Lorenzo Stoakes wrote: > > > Unavoidably, LLMs are the hot topic in tech right now, and are here > > > to stay. > > > > > > This poses unique problems: > > > > > > * Never before have people been able to generate as much content that > > > may, on a surface reading, seem valid whilst in reality being quite > > > the opposite. > > > > > > * Equally, LLM's can introduce very subtle mistakes that humans find > > > difficult to pick up upon - humans implicitly assume that the classes > > > of errors they will encounter are the kinds other humans would make - > > > AI defeats that instinct. > > > > Do you have any examples of this? I've found the opposite to be true: > > Sure - Steven encountered this in [1]. > > As he says there: > > "If I had known, I would have examined the patch a little more thoroughly, > and would have discovered a very minor mistake in the patch." > > The algorithm is determining likely output based on statistics, and > therefore density of input. Since in reality one can write infinite > programs, it's mathematically inevitable that an LLM will have to 'infer' > answers. > > That inference has no basis in dynamics, that is a model of reality that it > can use to determine answers, rather it will, in essence, provide a random > result. > > If there is a great deal of input (e.g. C programs), then that inference is > likely to manifest in very subtle errors. See [2] for a thoughtful > exploration from an AI expert on the topic of statistics vs. dynamics, and > [3] for a broader exploration of the topic from the same author. > > [1]:https://lore.kernel.org/workflows/20250724194556.105803db@gandalf.local.home/ > [2]:https://blog.piekniewski.info/2016/11/01/statistics-and-dynamics/ > [3]:https://blog.piekniewski.info/2023/04/09/ai-reflections/ > > > > AI is capable of really big stupid mistakes when it hasn't seen enough > > of the pattern, but I can't recall seeing it make something you'd > > classify as a subtle mistake (I assume it could copy subtle mistakes > > from wrong training data, so I'm not saying it can't, just that I > > haven't seen any). > > It's not from incorrect training data, it's fundamental to how LLMs > work. > > > > > I think the big mistakes could possibly be avoided by asking people who > > submit patches to also append the AI confidence score: > > > > https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/ai-services/document-intelligence/concept/accuracy-confidence?view=doc-intel-4.0.0 > > That's interesting, though I don't know how reliable this might be. > > However it's for exactly this kind of input that I proposed the topic :) > > > > > So we know how much similar training the model has seen before coming > > to any conclusion about the value of the output. > > > > > * The kernel is uniquely sensitive to erroneous (especially subtly > > > erroneous) code - even small errors can be highly consequential. We > > > use a programming language that can almost be defined by its lack of > > > any kind   of safety, and in some subsystems patches are simply taken > > > if no obvious problems exist, making us rather vulnerable to this. > > > > I think that's really overlooking the fact that if properly trained (a > > somewhat big *if* depending on the model) AI should be very good at > > writing safe code in unsafe languages. However it takes C specific > > I fundamentally disagree. > > The consequences of even extremely small mistakes can be very serious in C, > as the language does little to nothing for you. > > No matter how much data it absorbs it cannot span the entire space of all > possible programs or even anywhere close. > > I mean again, I apply the arguments above as to why I feel this is > _fundamental_ to the approach. > > Kernel code is also very specific and has characteristics that render it > different from userland. We must consider a great many more things that > would be handled for us were we userland - interrupts, the context we are > in, locks of all varieties, etc. etc. > > While there's a lot of kernel code (~10's of millions of line), for an LLM > that is very small, and we simply cannot generate more. > > Yes it can eat up all the C it can, but that isn't quite the same. > > > training to do this, so any LLM that's absorbed a load of rust, python > > and javascript from the internet will be correspondingly bad at writing > > safe C code. Hence the origin of the LLM and its training corpus would > > be a key factor in deciding to trust it. > > > > > * On the other hand, there are use cases which are useful - test > > > data/code generation, summarisation, smart auto-complete - so it'd > > > perhaps be foolish to entirely dismiss AI. > > > > Patch backporting is another such nice use. > > As long as carefully checked :) > > > > > > A very important non-technical point we must consider is that, the > > > second we even appear to be open to AI submission of _any_ kind, the > > > press will inevitably report on it gleefully, likely with > > > oversimplified headlines like 'Linux accepts AI patches'. > > > > Oh, I think simply accepting AI patches is old news: > > > > https://www.cnbc.com/2025/04/29/satya-nadella-says-as-much-as-30percent-of-microsoft-code-is-written-by-ai.html > > That doesn't pertain to the kernel specifically. > > Of course code being written by AI is old news, but there's no doubt that > tech publications would JUMP on anything even suggesting we are open in > some broad way to AI submissions. > > Given Linus's rather neutral public position on AI, it'd certainly mark > what _would be perceived_, in my view, as a sea change on this. > > > > > > The moment that happens, we are likely to see a significant uptick in > > > AI submissions whether we like it or not. > > > > > > I propose that we establish the broad rules as they pertain to the > > > kernel, and would like to bring the discussion to the Maintainer's > > > Summit so we can determine what those should be. > > > > > > It's important to get a sense of how maintainers feel about this - > > > whether what is proposed is opt-in or opt-out - and how we actually > > > implement this. > > > > > > There has been discussion on-list about this (see [0]), with many > > > suggestions made including a 'traffic light' system per-subsystem, > > > however many open questions remain - the devil is in the details. > > > > > > [0]: > > > https://lore.kernel.org/all/20250727195802.2222764-1-sashal@kernel.or > > > g/ > > > > We're already getting AI generated bug reports from what I can tell. > > It would be really helpful to see the AI confidence score for them as > > well. > > That is definitely an interesting additional data point that could > potentially be helpful here! I wasn't aware of this so thanks for that :) > > > > > Regards, > > > > James > > > > > > Cheers, Lorenzo