From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from wp530.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp530.webpack.hosteurope.de [80.237.130.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB424481D1 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 10:47:51 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=80.237.130.52 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1718880474; cv=none; b=T88s//Yid9blgpcyfuYla2qKQGDMvdbd3FfIe5ht8vXaW+TmsZtfz9g3RY+6vFBQ/IfGtuvkZrSmCBnia3nEXqfe65xDK00S1Kg3M4iQfDECu7xP9oHNDT4dJiOW9qmntwBB8upOGRhQjrP1arLhuFDr/PaMmDGNJJbRSvgwBCs= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1718880474; c=relaxed/simple; bh=z2DQAvHv2zTyYWDnEnS8t6NFTU1exozqldIILrmEE54=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Subject:To:Cc:References:From: In-Reply-To:Content-Type; b=Bhxhz3U4W9Wgk5Gw7wNNci9oggRpbe+OtoMBhAJ5lxPFiR0bwWJhwH3yBEsiVi0bup53vTamzY54dTbJTVIAyXHtiFawMhjOw+FL2UKsZ4rHBpHJFQU8rIBLYjKpWYwMsUPb0WanvqpRzivfatrznzGNy5HwT2Ry2R1EnoKAz6w= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=leemhuis.info; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=leemhuis.info; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=leemhuis.info header.i=@leemhuis.info header.b=WNxINgvr; arc=none smtp.client-ip=80.237.130.52 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=leemhuis.info Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=leemhuis.info Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=leemhuis.info header.i=@leemhuis.info header.b="WNxINgvr" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=leemhuis.info; s=he214686; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: In-Reply-To:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From: Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:In-Reply-To: References; bh=31qMxp+P2fpok1R4uZdNlXmcbTV2vugSM3lniE07aiI=; t=1718880472; x=1719312472; b=WNxINgvrIgU3j3xHHcFMk4uGXfF41s/tnAlvPPpmA3iyuDwkwSIh/l+r7xQIS m5UWLwQ61+UzTEz38GanDp1A3sgkGxcceiMqGPRJF37AQGcFKmeXQpNIPHplVJsDYawJ3nAncbQWm ylhAwozsPOdnAxhs5Z/U6Kv9xjtH5udbP6NHr7FSBb/8XwWI7/IFiXP+rvmn76J9qT1VLbcT8Fm8g DktPc0ACwpLj9yZRswM3KViMHKMGw+aP7S9e6Dwnu/dGR0iz9D0igeH9Mv4ehDzXoryTKGI0p7Ml6 8gd3PchhvMhvLtv91LW+Jcp/Gpuk7ZTHhonsP0Y4xfQ6XdSTQA==; Received: from [2a02:8108:8980:2478:8cde:aa2c:f324:937e]; authenticated by wp530.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1sKFKX-00020y-Tb; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 12:47:49 +0200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 12:47:49 +0200 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] [3/4] Elevate handling of regressions that made it to releases deemed for end users To: Laurent Pinchart Cc: Mark Brown , Jiri Kosina , "ksummit@lists.linux.dev" References: <55e89d2c-fa25-4daa-805e-5aca31b321bf@leemhuis.info> <20240613113455.GH6019@pendragon.ideasonboard.com> <635e47c6-c2ce-4a5b-9957-6efcdcfe2f00@leemhuis.info> <20240619202531.GE31507@pendragon.ideasonboard.com> From: Thorsten Leemhuis Content-Language: en-US, de-DE Autocrypt: addr=linux@leemhuis.info; keydata= xsFNBFJ4AQ0BEADCz16x4kl/YGBegAsYXJMjFRi3QOr2YMmcNuu1fdsi3XnM+xMRaukWby47 JcsZYLDKRHTQ/Lalw9L1HI3NRwK+9ayjg31wFdekgsuPbu4x5RGDIfyNpd378Upa8SUmvHik apCnzsxPTEE4Z2KUxBIwTvg+snEjgZ03EIQEi5cKmnlaUynNqv3xaGstx5jMCEnR2X54rH8j QPvo2l5/79Po58f6DhxV2RrOrOjQIQcPZ6kUqwLi6EQOi92NS9Uy6jbZcrMqPIRqJZ/tTKIR OLWsEjNrc3PMcve+NmORiEgLFclN8kHbPl1tLo4M5jN9xmsa0OZv3M0katqW8kC1hzR7mhz+ Rv4MgnbkPDDO086HjQBlS6Zzo49fQB2JErs5nZ0mwkqlETu6emhxneAMcc67+ZtTeUj54K2y Iu8kk6ghaUAfgMqkdIzeSfhO8eURMhvwzSpsqhUs7pIj4u0TPN8OFAvxE/3adoUwMaB+/plk sNe9RsHHPV+7LGADZ6OzOWWftk34QLTVTcz02bGyxLNIkhY+vIJpZWX9UrfGdHSiyYThHCIy /dLz95b9EG+1tbCIyNynr9TjIOmtLOk7ssB3kL3XQGgmdQ+rJ3zckJUQapLKP2YfBi+8P1iP rKkYtbWk0u/FmCbxcBA31KqXQZoR4cd1PJ1PDCe7/DxeoYMVuwARAQABzSdUaG9yc3RlbiBM ZWVtaHVpcyA8bGludXhAbGVlbWh1aXMuaW5mbz7CwZQEEwEKAD4CGwMFCwkIBwMFFQoJCAsF FgIDAQACHgECF4AWIQSoq8a+lZZX4oPULXVytubvTFg9LQUCX31PIwUJFmtPkwAKCRBytubv TFg9LWsyD/4t3g4i2YVp8RoKAcOut0AZ7/uLSqlm8Jcbb+LeeuzjY9T3mQ4ZX8cybc1jRlsL JMYL8GD3a53/+bXCDdk2HhQKUwBJ9PUDbfWa2E/pnqeJeX6naLn1LtMJ78G9gPeG81dX5Yq+ g/2bLXyWefpejlaefaM0GviCt00kG4R/mJJpHPKIPxPbOPY2REzWPoHXJpi7vTOA2R8HrFg/ QJbnA25W55DzoxlRb/nGZYG4iQ+2Eplkweq3s3tN88MxzNpsxZp475RmzgcmQpUtKND7Pw+8 zTDPmEzkHcUChMEmrhgWc2OCuAu3/ezsw7RnWV0k9Pl5AGROaDqvARUtopQ3yEDAdV6eil2z TvbrokZQca2808v2rYO3TtvtRMtmW/M/yyR233G/JSNos4lODkCwd16GKjERYj+sJsW4/hoZ RQiJQBxjnYr+p26JEvghLE1BMnTK24i88Oo8v+AngR6JBxwH7wFuEIIuLCB9Aagb+TKsf+0c HbQaHZj+wSY5FwgKi6psJxvMxpRpLqPsgl+awFPHARktdPtMzSa+kWMhXC4rJahBC5eEjNmP i23DaFWm8BE9LNjdG8Yl5hl7Zx0mwtnQas7+z6XymGuhNXCOevXVEqm1E42fptYMNiANmrpA OKRF+BHOreakveezlpOz8OtUhsew9b/BsAHXBCEEOuuUg87BTQRSeAENARAAzu/3satWzly6 +Lqi5dTFS9+hKvFMtdRb/vW4o9CQsMqL2BJGoE4uXvy3cancvcyodzTXCUxbesNP779JqeHy s7WkF2mtLVX2lnyXSUBm/ONwasuK7KLz8qusseUssvjJPDdw8mRLAWvjcsYsZ0qgIU6kBbvY ckUWkbJj/0kuQCmmulRMcaQRrRYrk7ZdUOjaYmjKR+UJHljxLgeregyiXulRJxCphP5migoy ioa1eset8iF9fhb+YWY16X1I3TnucVCiXixzxwn3uwiVGg28n+vdfZ5lackCOj6iK4+lfzld z4NfIXK+8/R1wD9yOj1rr3OsjDqOaugoMxgEFOiwhQDiJlRKVaDbfmC1G5N1YfQIn90znEYc M7+Sp8Rc5RUgN5yfuwyicifIJQCtiWgjF8ttcIEuKg0TmGb6HQHAtGaBXKyXGQulD1CmBHIW zg7bGge5R66hdbq1BiMX5Qdk/o3Sr2OLCrxWhqMdreJFLzboEc0S13BCxVglnPqdv5sd7veb 0az5LGS6zyVTdTbuPUu4C1ZbstPbuCBwSwe3ERpvpmdIzHtIK4G9iGIR3Seo0oWOzQvkFn8m 2k6H2/Delz9IcHEefSe5u0GjIA18bZEt7R2k8CMZ84vpyWOchgwXK2DNXAOzq4zwV8W4TiYi FiIVXfSj185vCpuE7j0ugp0AEQEAAcLBfAQYAQoAJgIbDBYhBKirxr6Vllfig9QtdXK25u9M WD0tBQJffU8wBQkWa0+jAAoJEHK25u9MWD0tv+0P/A47x8r+hekpuF2KvPpGi3M6rFpdPfeO RpIGkjQWk5M+oF0YH3vtb0+92J7LKfJwv7GIy2PZO2svVnIeCOvXzEM/7G1n5zmNMYGZkSyf x9dnNCjNl10CmuTYud7zsd3cXDku0T+Ow5Dhnk6l4bbJSYzFEbz3B8zMZGrs9EhqNzTLTZ8S Mznmtkxcbb3f/o5SW9NhH60mQ23bB3bBbX1wUQAmMjaDQ/Nt5oHWHN0/6wLyF4lStBGCKN9a TLp6E3100BuTCUCrQf9F3kB7BC92VHvobqYmvLTCTcbxFS4JNuT+ZyV+xR5JiV+2g2HwhxWW uC88BtriqL4atyvtuybQT+56IiiU2gszQ+oxR/1Aq+VZHdUeC6lijFiQblqV6EjenJu+pR9A 7EElGPPmYdO1WQbBrmuOrFuO6wQrbo0TbUiaxYWyoM9cA7v7eFyaxgwXBSWKbo/bcAAViqLW ysaCIZqWxrlhHWWmJMvowVMkB92uPVkxs5IMhSxHS4c2PfZ6D5kvrs3URvIc6zyOrgIaHNzR 8AF4PXWPAuZu1oaG/XKwzMqN/Y/AoxWrCFZNHE27E1RrMhDgmyzIzWQTffJsVPDMQqDfLBhV ic3b8Yec+Kn+ExIF5IuLfHkUgIUs83kDGGbV+wM8NtlGmCXmatyavUwNCXMsuI24HPl7gV2h n7RI In-Reply-To: <20240619202531.GE31507@pendragon.ideasonboard.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;linux@leemhuis.info;1718880472;99ca8e65; X-HE-SMSGID: 1sKFKX-00020y-Tb On 19.06.24 22:25, Laurent Pinchart wrote: > On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 02:58:38PM +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >> On 14.06.24 16:10, Mark Brown wrote: >>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 01:39:00PM +0200, Jiri Kosina wrote: >>>> On Thu, 13 Jun 2024, Laurent Pinchart wrote: >>> >>>>> I don't think piling pressure will help. What could help is to reduce >>>>> pressure on already overloaded maintainers, to give them more time to >>>>> handle regressions. There have been multiple discussions about >>>>> co-maintainance models over the past few years, and some subsystems are >>>>> (slowly) moving forward. I would be more interested in participating in >>>>> that effort. >>> >>>> Fully agreed. That's exactly why a few days ago I proposed the topic about >>>> exploring the options of making the merge tree more deep (by delegating >>>> more and making the co-maintainership model more prominent), as that in my >>>> view is the only available solution to the current maintainer pressure >>>> problem. >>> >>> In my experience deeper maintainer trees are often a factor in slowing >>> down patches, passing things between maintainers often just inherently >>> adds delays even if nobody goes on holiday or whatever. >> >> From what I see from the regressions perspective they are not ideal >> either. The slow down is one problem, unless the process is streamlined >> well. Another one from my biased point of view seems to be that a few of >> are far away from Linus and apparently not fully aware how he wants >> regressions to be handled. >> >> Which is not really surprising, as over the years there were quite a few >> cases where maintainers of core subsystems were not handled well either. >> But sooner or later that resulted in a clash with Linus[1] and from then >> on things worked better. For many sub-subsystem something like that >> never happened -- and the maintainers of the higher level subsystem can >> not have their eyes everywhere, so they do not notice such problems or >> are more lax and friendly. > > This got me thinking: why don't we have trainings for maintainers, > instead of expecting people to decypher a combination of unwritten > rules, and written documentation containing conflicting and partly > outdated information ? Good point, but even if that training would exists it would be given by someone that deciphered "a combination of unwritten rules, and written documentation containing conflicting and partly outdated information" (as well as posts from Linus about the topic found on lore). At least unless we get Linus to give that training himself. :-) Which is why I try to write something down and get it blessed -- ideally by Linus, but if we a handful of core maintainers agree on it that good enough for me as well. > Of course, the whole path going from a first > submission to the kernel to maintaining a subsystem is some sort of > training (even if it looks like the kind of epic training the hero > ninja/warrior/sorcerer will undergo on their perilous journey to saving > the kingdom more than a process designed to optimize the end result), :-D > but at best that provides partial knowledge of the expected maintenance > process, +1 > without even mentioning the issue of keeping the knowledge up > to date. Once written down a simple diff will take care of that -- ideally of course coupled with some way to announcement the change to make people aware of it. But as I said somewhere else in this thread: writing things down has downsides as well (misinterpretations/misunderstandings, situations where ignoring them is for the greater good the right thing to do, ...). > It sometimes feels we're discussing how to improve the process > without even considering that many people are not even aware there is a > process. Ciao, Thorsten