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X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2306200000 definitions=main-2308180143 X-Proofpoint-GUID: 05zKgfFhwEU86YBx3Q_mLY5IrP3iz5kO X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 05zKgfFhwEU86YBx3Q_mLY5IrP3iz5kO On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 06:26:29PM +0300, Laurent Pinchart wrote: > On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 03:55:11PM +0200, Linus Walleij wrote: > > Alexei, thanks for returning the conversation > > to this very important topic. > > > > On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 1:55 AM Alexei Starovoitov wrote: > > > > > BPF has solid CI that helps a lot, but the maintainer burnout is acutely felt. > > > The main reason for burnout is patch flood. > > > > I agree this is an important cause. > > Even worse is any kind of social conflict or bad mood in the community. > > Science has studied stress, what we mostly run into is called "microstress". > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_stress > > > > > The maintainer's day looks like non-stop code review. > > > The patch backlog just doesn't end. > > > > I've been there too :( > > I think most of us know the feeling. Personally, if my workload reaches > 100% review for an extended period of time, without having any time for > "fun" activities such as hacking, I'm pretty sure my review efficiency > drops drastically. Maybe that's call burn out. > > > > We're trying to encourage active developers to be code reviewers as well > > > via positive/negative scores: > > > https://lore.kernel.org/bpf/ZJx8sBW%2FQPOBswNF@google.com/ > > > > > > It doesn't help much yet. All incoming kernel contributors assume > > > that it's a maintainer's job to do code reviews. > > > Developers just send patches and wait. It doesn't occur to them that > > > reviewing other patches will help them land their own. > > > > The DRI/DRM community has group maintainership that works a little > > bit. > > Essentially it boils down to ask people to review your stuff and you > > will review and also merge their stuff in return. > > Sometimes this works. > > Especially if you are a circle of acquaintances working full > > time on similar things, yay! So much support. > > When you are a sporadic contributor it doesn't work as well. > > Because you cannot always find some matching contribution to > > review and you feel like begging. > > So different solutions for different contributors may be needed. > > I've also experienced mixed results from "trading reviews". It's > certainly nice on paper, and it works sometimes, especially when asking > contributors to review patches that are directly related to their > business interest. I remember asking a contributor from a large company > to help me with reviews, to free some of my time to review their > patches. The contributor helped with reviewing third-party contributions > to the driver they're actively working on. When I asked for help > reviewing an entirely separate driver that their employer had no > business interest in, however, I faced the "we're busy and don't have > time" argument. > > Maybe part of the solution here, to share the maintenance burden, is to > expect contributors, especially the ones with large financial resources, > to spent a certain percentage of their time reviewing code that is in > their area of expertise but not in their area of business interest. May I add an point that I had struggled in the past with (and it could be very well this is not an issue in your subsystem in which case please ignore it): This idea assumes you trust them to have the same level of expertise that you have. That is say they do a review but miss the more esoteric semantics (say hardware quirks that are documented but only for folks that *grok* the hardware). You may know it, but they don't. You accept their patches and months later it all blows up. You are unhappy, Linus is screaming about it. Burn-out ++. Perhaps the question should be: How to grow the community so that members collectively have the same knowledge as you? (And then you can take days off without feeling guily. Burn-out --).