From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail-oi1-f181.google.com (mail-oi1-f181.google.com [209.85.167.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE32C13B5AD for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:02:32 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=209.85.167.181 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1721912554; cv=none; b=VvArJUddU+Y3a5kIr1zTd3IwZCEKYznJM5gozu20XdpHw7BA2EaYXstfNukuRpZVVTVkUW1raz1jDVBzU+T1IAk1E6Svsee1tElG/UhGv7vjL343mEN674/H9FIXj3ftTqvMkijpLrL8mqoCFR5OrD6Bw+4DvN8dFrE4Yk14cCg= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1721912554; c=relaxed/simple; bh=0KsN8bTzJfBmQj967+w/L9AqPEgh6PQzXgnINTU0gQY=; h=MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject: To:Cc:Content-Type; b=T4CaNoq0C9TyOjD/01sHd2HFDsjWt4RIzipCnjy7O0iRh29nExApW6iW0TSzIZde1AxqIwGnmzS+JRS7AICJPqlpkxrrI02+NzBuk+h5BA+7Uyc7l9zhOLJE5IsewL212ZMxjW+mPB/pBMoJPunryNzMfDr86b0kJiNHFcQyvdY= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=gmail.com; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=aTS+2leI; arc=none smtp.client-ip=209.85.167.181 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=gmail.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="aTS+2leI" Received: by mail-oi1-f181.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3d9dbbaa731so510905b6e.3 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2024 06:02:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1721912552; x=1722517352; darn=lists.linux.dev; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=0KsN8bTzJfBmQj967+w/L9AqPEgh6PQzXgnINTU0gQY=; b=aTS+2leIlOA2FBttVibmKd+yBVdWU/NBhzI89K+Xa3JPCRTPAANCTCQGERv5mbicNn biSEkFJK4DebxJ4wLI4+RO9c+V8iC1u6yZqDe2Gy3eBcSwmTMSHXyYizjOKBNiZRjQd4 j2S4by8Eq3e98m/5Xdk3wU+PfIwoQ78fkgF29ONW8C8wrzyfczz4bXmgKrtV447sVlaj ZZMueLqVlNyiBqYDAbmAvUeTC4bIxxMylfCtb7WBZ3lvozY92jGD+2bV0N4zvxChbBHx aU9SEawKP4i7J9D3d/RgqQ8sW7GusgSIx/SFtbjfHRv1BbD2z2QhWZYkRdVHtHMdgsNv BGJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1721912552; x=1722517352; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0KsN8bTzJfBmQj967+w/L9AqPEgh6PQzXgnINTU0gQY=; b=RSCiSOWC19ipaJKfjey2S82FZ0pm+Xkum9cCXNBvV4n0AWjQ6Z7Z8Hmuitnt3E+NOa Ma+W+LnSG+YdHkmSnt83UtEYs5EvCopXreuG2/yNYFd/ToqHkZysgb/YHg1vr7t+dp38 LhV8CUR5v/j45bpsi+1r77kmgRAMJJ92UuljzG4youw4DWOvlcO78hNIjrWG1Qr5jRh6 Ky9DcaDnNCpLFiFjTOUX/NffJywKI8q2sdnQ/IhXJBs6tJZZJLe7pLusFjLjXVUdXho7 7tgXWCckitIhtnG6EX3e2yLlNUF8UDMPT5w7Vhv+BF/UBZR8y9MAfo+uroljf2DSvTlq jFdQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUghatHgvszeYtSX9N6bBgXle1Ju0vKkK9XA2Ma5qIFLbu5DfGPh+PaChW+4L4kkJy6TeH64Zid2GSzADrqcye1kdHaDnA8pQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzMHyV17OmGYR3YSYWA3N9TDJBpeRf0MVPhjPSCASrfKmUE8Yxm oFmY4pD64gdVRFadEuVP6k0JpuBh8RLDpRU+ExoO3jQJ1MkRLvQdQhyZL7GNE8FNdp0k2oZJk1g M0l4W2L0TLQrI3+5JIeM35WTvz+4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFnwa2463n9AhT8ZQ4MfQ5LP7Y8xO4yJdy25Rk02R0VU5cXlOQdpYjPaSUGwmh63uOKNiEP9uSHrDvmPfERl9Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6358:728:b0:1ac:f839:e001 with SMTP id e5c5f4694b2df-1acfb966725mr193976855d.22.1721912551739; Thu, 25 Jul 2024 06:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <668c67a324609_ed99294c0@dwillia2-xfh.jf.intel.com.notmuch> <1e82a5c97e915144e01dd65575929c15bc0db397.camel@HansenPartnership.com> <20240724200012.GA23293@pendragon.ideasonboard.com> <20240725122315.GE7022@unreal> In-Reply-To: <20240725122315.GE7022@unreal> From: Ricardo Ribalda Delgado Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:02:13 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Device Passthrough Considered Harmful? To: Leon Romanovsky Cc: Laurent Pinchart , James Bottomley , Jiri Kosina , Dan Williams , ksummit@lists.linux.dev, linux-cxl@vger.kernel.org, linux-rdma@vger.kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, jgg@nvidia.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 2:23=E2=80=AFPM Leon Romanovsky w= rote: > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 11:26:38AM +0200, Ricardo Ribalda Delgado wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:02=E2=80=AFPM Laurent Pinchart > > wrote: > > <...> > > > > > It would be great to define what are the free software communities > > here. Distros and final users are also "free software communities" and > > they do not care about niche use cases covered by proprietary > > software. > > Are you certain about that? As a user, and as an open source Distro developer I have a small hint. But you could also ask users what they think about not being able to use their notebook's cameras. The last time that I could not use some basic hardware from a notebook with Linux was 20 years ago. > > > They only care (and should care) about normal workflows. > > What is a normal workflow? > Does it mean that if user bought something very expensive he > should not be able to use it with free software, because his > usage is different from yours? > > Thanks It means that we should not block the standard usage for 99% of the population just because 1% of the users cannot do something fancy with their device. Let me give you an example. When I buy a camera I want to be able to do Video Conferencing and take some static photos of documents. I do not care about: automatic makeup, AI generated background, unicorn filters, eyes recentering... But we need to give a way to vendors to implement those things closely, without the marketing differentiators, vendors have zero incentive to invest in Linux, and that affects all the population. This challenge seems to be solved for GPUs. I am using my AMD GPU freely and my nephew can install the amdgpu-pro proprietary user space driver to play duke nukem (or whatever kids play now) at 2000 fps. There are other other subsystems that allow vendor passthrough and their ecosystem has not collapsed. Can we have some general guidance of what is acceptable? Can we define together the "normal workflow" and focus on a *full* open source implementation of that? --=20 Ricardo Ribalda