From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA5531026 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2018 20:46:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-lf1-f68.google.com (mail-lf1-f68.google.com [209.85.167.68]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD25B76C for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2018 20:46:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lf1-f68.google.com with SMTP id o21-v6so4134393lfe.0 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2018 13:46:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20180924181138.GA16086@tuxdriver.com> In-Reply-To: <20180924181138.GA16086@tuxdriver.com> From: Olof Johansson Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 22:46:29 +0200 Message-ID: To: "John W. Linville" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Cc: olof@lxom.net, Greg Kroah-Hartman , ksummit Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [TECH-TOPIC] Review - Code of Conduct: Let's revamp it. List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 8:15 PM John W. Linville wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 03:51:14AM +1000, James Morris wrote: > > On Mon, 24 Sep 2018, Shuah Khan wrote: > > > > > This decision to change the existing "Code of Conflict" signed off by a large number of developers, > > > has been changed and committed with a few people signing off on it. > > > > > > It would be good to know the circumstances that necessitated the decision to include this patch > > > without the proper review process. if that isn't possible, it is important to follow the review > > > process now for v2. Also, discussing this in the Maintainer summit and/or kernel summit will not > > > make the community feel like it is a community approved decision. At least, kernel community should > > > be given a chance to discuss this change just like any other change. > > > > Not speaking on behalf of my employer, I agree with all of the above. > > +1 > > Some number of folks feel (at least indirectly) chided or silenced by > the new Code of Conduct. Many of those folks have expressed themselves > ineloquently in a variety of venues. Much as one may disagree with > some of their expressed sentiments, those expressions of frustration > represent the feelings of some number of people in the real world. > > It seems likely to me that these folks are at least as likely to > quit the community over their hurt feelings as have been the victims > of Linus or any other grumpy maintainers. If we really care about > maximizing the pool of contributors, we need to accomodate even those > that aren't particularly comfortable with 'playing nice'. Giving them > some say in establishing the rules seems extremely reasonable to me. Ah yes, Popper's Paradox. The answer is not that we have to be tolerant of the intolerant -- or at least not infinitely. We also all know that people need a bit of time to adjust to new habits and I think we should focus more on (quick) improvement over time than absolutes. We're all humans. I'd like to make a couple of personal opinions clear here (for whatever it's worth): 1) The CoC was clear that we're using this _from now on_. I.e. let bygones be bygones even if bad things might have happened (there are extreme exceptions to this, but let's not go there). 2) Some seem to be focused on worst-case scenarios of the culture changing to be something completely different from what it is today. I don't think anyone involved wants this, and we shouldn't implement something that strict here. I still want people to argue over and care about code. I still look forward to everybody participating, and we shouldn't be doing anything along the lines of lowering the quality bar or prioritizing things differently from today. However, I hope that when we do have disagreements, we won't reach shouting in all caps and name-calling stage. If someone gets a bit too tempered, people should feel free to reach out and talk about it -- and that said people are willing to listen and maybe take a few deep breaths before considering if it's useful to continue communicating like they were and tone it down. If we can get that far, that'd make a huge difference. The old Code of Conflict said "be excellent to each other", but people weren't. Hopefully with this change, we can end up a whole lot closer to that state. -Olof