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[209.85.218.50]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-65fac06dd07sm2797078a12.24.2026.03.01.09.33.50 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 01 Mar 2026 09:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ej1-f50.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-b934f8ec6acso434068466b.2 for ; Sun, 01 Mar 2026 09:33:50 -0800 (PST) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUc6bhnQYA2h6Xgzsgy3s4F3n0omZ+ctrJE+3ShgJeNYw9I7RGpuYoIzpoDlHT0SjZjUheAHMYL@lists.linux.dev X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:6a14:b0:b93:5f43:ccbc with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-b9376599d3bmr594132466b.53.1772386430447; Sun, 01 Mar 2026 09:33:50 -0800 (PST) Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1655051015.2216.1772209338375.JavaMail.zimbra@nod.at> <5dea1bca-75fe-4e3c-950d-d489a438299a@leemhuis.info> <1786920159.1633.1772291851870.JavaMail.zimbra@nod.at> <1661016163.157.1772303364121.JavaMail.zimbra@nod.at> <20260228152617.06b392de@fedora> <583136576.604.1772310537428.JavaMail.zimbra@nod.at> <20260228155611.70911c0f@fedora> <20260301153526.GE2860169@killaraus.ideasonboard.com> In-Reply-To: <20260301153526.GE2860169@killaraus.ideasonboard.com> From: Linus Torvalds Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2026 09:33:34 -0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: AaiRm52AB5znH2LQsZnFtA2EvQ9g4t5cwGw1-rFuNRjG-xZA_NRs8I44hHsNz4s Message-ID: Subject: Re: slowly decommission bugzilla? To: Laurent Pinchart Cc: Sasha Levin , Steven Rostedt , Richard Weinberger , Thorsten Leemhuis , Geert Uytterhoeven , Andrew Morton , Konstantin Ryabitsev , users , ksummit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 at 07:35, Laurent Pinchart wrote: > > Do we really have to use non-deterministic tools that will inevitably > produce correct-looking but otherwise useless backtraces from time to > time, confusing developers and wasting time for everybody, when we can > instead easily develop tools that will work in a deterministic fashion ? Please do develop that, since it's so easy. We haven't done it in 35 years, but I'm sure you can whip something up in an afternoon. .. and in the meantime, how about we not waste real humans' time having *them* be very frustrated and generating non-deterministic guesses - and inevitably incorrect analyses - of the reason for bugs. Christ people - have you even *looked* at bug discussions? They are *full* of those "non-deterministic and correct-looking but wrong" guesses. And that's the _good_ case, when you have people actively following up on oopses. Yes, there are real humans that are trying to use informed guesses as way to a solution. Sometimes that guess is correct - and with decades of experience that percentage certainly goes up - but quite often it's a "maybe you can try XYZ". What the hell is wrong with people? This whole "AI can be very wrong" is obviously true. But it's irrelevant, and equally misleading as the Sam Altmans of the world that lie and exaggerate through their teeth to make a buck (but when you do it for money, it's called "marketing" and is obviously ok. Sigh). Determinism is fine. But the world isn't entirely deterministic, and it looks particularly non-deterministic when there just isn't enough information. A "good guess" is sometimes the best you can do. And there's nothing wrong with trying tooling that does exactly that. Should those guesses be *marked* as such? Hell yes. But this crazy "it's AI, so it's bad" needs to stop. Linus