From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail-lf1-f43.google.com (mail-lf1-f43.google.com [209.85.167.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 238B621D59C for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2025 15:41:02 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=209.85.167.43 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1740584464; cv=none; b=DSxFfwXJXZkP1tkYtBdn9+n1ElRkZNANtssxZPB17ezx+x27LFLB8hED26/90myG7zl9dFukLbML91rT62CxzoEzmUJenDTO5o633VvE9JiV09PLz2ojxFt6e562klUxSTH97ONPj/zugzvmkCg7xFXMDizzQagkELxjXz0SKws= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1740584464; c=relaxed/simple; bh=uwWzBgOkEu6tAt9RlvyuB/XrCzVCtBuoCGy7bItgOXc=; h=MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject: To:Cc:Content-Type; b=I5ivY3AjUHTiHAITxbVfvyrvENWFfNMwOlGFL48aRV5nAjYKi8tN9nGpI5Vny5ri5TMUbbvpN0jROVYkrYEYWrgvvpTLjvvjRTTMLtbIw2VxP+ZKSLRUdqxc4OsdQvox8lot69HiexyyU/fK3ofVmiSHWX+9ObfEMqC0zV/3/TU= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=gmail.com; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=geO1u8SC; arc=none smtp.client-ip=209.85.167.43 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=gmail.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="geO1u8SC" Received: by mail-lf1-f43.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-5454f00fc8dso6482104e87.0 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2025 07:41:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1740584461; x=1741189261; darn=lists.linux.dev; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=uwWzBgOkEu6tAt9RlvyuB/XrCzVCtBuoCGy7bItgOXc=; b=geO1u8SCsUsYFsqpNOz576wuy7f4fvaKGYqWig/lWjP9Hd+6UG7nWFwFbNLH+3FpNl 8RxxHhYoSrg7JQ20DznG+lvygm18YjkE9SrTr0rSzKaaGH0TQphAIxPZB0nqxToHjGsV nDUTLp6TZBA52svIsd8Z/YFIvuf+1tX/gQyWVvjaPfPf2RoW7TNAjlplMo7wFGfIOtCf 0JKltK1NQ/EBqK7cZKLZdSFWZU9Fx02aX2fefT30g88r6MHOnEvfFSSyheERhU9taOqY VbGiDA/cLEuEJR2qkRQkc91bfg0XAV2fglfQ7+fDdrynyuTuoyh2TJMGvUM8zTrE7VmT P2eg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1740584461; x=1741189261; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=uwWzBgOkEu6tAt9RlvyuB/XrCzVCtBuoCGy7bItgOXc=; b=DoMKV/+d6MIkdKP2U0/GymajM+PpLyceVQuWnZeVNg6rX8t3mzXLkjh2ITrvQVeciB WEL6asOaXnfPT51Q6f7auGbMe7kZTzVodaogvuk8460mYjmqNeZQtK6MlIslxjuBpUzJ uR5JFJChUbkYGLMm5NyCNvG0lF9sURA/tgAzlPHBYudajtBXv88y0/738LpqCMCbCFfu HWL4AgwXp3x5DgT8QM4bPx4MbkgH/bdZ6zSpDq/RyB6S/fkKxbf/b6aHBZW+xLKbRQlN uE8j84zXh/peN4NeG/I2t1XRiAYontZPImpPdyw8l/AqhnH34HinkMkbr3JOCgjcsnaC RGPg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVh4aj0Rtmhc4ljgEV9CqHJrxMITpaq+Zr9dM1hDDYbLkyTZNB7L9qe7SNB6JQJmWrccQ32s1NQ@lists.linux.dev X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz7/XecoKrdGbkJXvYaxKoNEW5akqr9HZleS7XdP457lxsHEx3C 8quWvRrEvqBPmR0A79nyKznKcxWxKF6lEc/qHwaOvOUQCyMsaMGmoLxAhumYGvcqSD8XrueX0Pm NdNarF7xl9uvftY0BvHYAcx8rmoo= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvCPZyVJBMRTqJLFVSgYdjiexHSTlqqgeujUUj8PTHYZarGFcK9RwAW/X6bdb4 DLDzxDOlRSMTearWkXvf2v6VrcMMVQyln0CK6qTUN6n3h7IcltShOn0rBcpGIxpZTpGPxWrZv/k TkHyHA7wMG X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGWvtVF8xWWD8RBTOvu+8xeco4voQOBMX41WoZV9Ovk1e8nbIdwzOdsmKqOtELpZ+dTqQfiZ1hmxeZZjvkc79Q= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:281b:b0:545:a2f:22b4 with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-5493c5c0efemr2758222e87.40.1740584460979; Wed, 26 Feb 2025 07:41:00 -0800 (PST) Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20250222141521.1fe24871@eugeo> <6pwjvkejyw2wjxobu6ffeyolkk2fppuuvyrzqpigchqzhclnhm@v5zhfpmirk2c> <91dbba64-ade3-4e46-854e-87cd9ecaa689@ralfj.de> In-Reply-To: <91dbba64-ade3-4e46-854e-87cd9ecaa689@ralfj.de> From: Ventura Jack Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2025 08:40:44 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JoXyOl8V4-EvSRgg4-KWz-YXXimRSHqSWOPiONotHcWRZZoZ5sJPppo77c Message-ID: Subject: Re: C aggregate passing (Rust kernel policy) To: Ralf Jung Cc: Alice Ryhl , Linus Torvalds , Kent Overstreet , Gary Guo , airlied@gmail.com, boqun.feng@gmail.com, david.laight.linux@gmail.com, ej@inai.de, gregkh@linuxfoundation.org, hch@infradead.org, hpa@zytor.com, ksummit@lists.linux.dev, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, miguel.ojeda.sandonis@gmail.com, rust-for-linux@vger.kernel.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 7:14=E2=80=AFAM Ralf Jung wrote: > > Hi all, > > > [Omitted] > > > > Are you sure that both stacked borrows and tree borrows are > > meant to be full models with no false positives and false negatives, > > and no uncertainty, if I understand you correctly? > > Speaking as an author of both models: yes. These models are candidates fo= r the > *definition* of which programs are correct and which are not. In that sen= se, > once adopted, the model *becomes* the baseline, and by definition has no = false > negative or false positives. Thank you for the answer, that clarifies matters for me. > [Omitted] (However, verification tools are > in the works as well, and thanks to Miri we have a very good idea of what > exactly it is that these tools have to check for.) [Omitted] Verification as in static verification? That is some interesting and exciting stuff if so. Best, VJ.