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From: Ventura Jack <venturajack85@gmail.com>
To: Benno Lossin <benno.lossin@proton.me>
Cc: Gary Guo <gary@garyguo.net>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	 Kent Overstreet <kent.overstreet@linux.dev>,
	airlied@gmail.com, boqun.feng@gmail.com,
	 david.laight.linux@gmail.com, ej@inai.de,
	gregkh@linuxfoundation.org,  hch@infradead.org, hpa@zytor.com,
	ksummit@lists.linux.dev,  linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
	miguel.ojeda.sandonis@gmail.com,  rust-for-linux@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: C aggregate passing (Rust kernel policy)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 09:57:41 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAFJgqgRdiQ29bWvwsu11yokZb4OFF7pYYUU=ES6CYv9847KgVg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <a4b79751-f1c8-4476-98a5-c59fb2e545ad@proton.me>

On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 5:47 AM Benno Lossin <benno.lossin@proton.me> wrote:
>
> On 24.02.25 13:21, Ventura Jack wrote:
> >
> > From what I can see in the documentation, `&UnsafeCell<T>` also does not
> > behave like `T*` in C. In C, especially if "strict aliasing" is turned
> > off in the
> > compiler, `T*` does not have aliasing requirements. You can have multiple
> > C `T*` pointers pointing to the same object, and mutate the same object.
>
> This is true for `&UnsafeCell<T>`. You can have multiple of those and
> mutate the same value via only shared references. Note that
> `UnsafeCell<T>` is `!Sync`, so it cannot be shared across threads, so
> all of those shared references have to be on the same thread. (there is
> the `SyncUnsafeCell<T>` type that is `Sync`, so it does allow for
> across-thread mutations, but that is much more of a footgun, since you
> still have to synchronize the writes/reads)
>
> > The documentation for `UnsafeCell` conversely spends a lot of space
> > discussing invariants and aliasing requirements.
>
> Yes, since normally in Rust, you can either have exactly one mutable
> reference, or several shared references (which cannot be used to mutate
> a value). `UnsafeCell<T>` is essentially a low-level primitive that can
> only be used with `unsafe` to build for example a mutex.
>
> > I do not understand why you claim:
> >
> >     "`&UnsafeCell<T>` behaves like `T*` in C,"
> >
> > That statement is false as far as I can figure out, though I have taken it
> > out of context here.
>
> Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion, the following code is legal
> and sound Rust:
>
>     let val = UnsafeCell::new(42);
>     let x = &val;
>     let y = &val;
>     unsafe {
>         *x.get() = 0;
>         *y.get() = 42;
>         *x.get() = 24;
>     }
>
> You can't do this with `&mut i32`.

I think I see what you mean. The specific Rust "const reference"
`&UnsafeCell<T>` sort of behaves like C `T*`. But you have to get a
Rust "mutable raw pointer" `*mut T` when working with it using
`UnsafeCell::get()`. And you have to be careful with lifetimes if you
do any casts or share it or certain other things. And to dereference a
Rust "mutable raw pointer", you must use unsafe Rust. And you have to
understand aliasing.

One example I tested against MIRI:

    use std::cell::UnsafeCell;

    fn main() {

        let val: UnsafeCell<i32> = UnsafeCell::new(42);
        let x: & UnsafeCell<i32> = &val;
        let y: & UnsafeCell<i32> = &val;

        unsafe {

            // UB.
            //let pz: & i32 = & *val.get();

            // UB.
            //let pz: &mut i32 = &mut *val.get();

            // Okay.
            //let pz: *const i32 = &raw const *val.get();

            // Okay.
            let pz: *mut i32 = &raw mut *val.get();

            let px: *mut i32 = x.get();
            let py: *mut i32 = y.get();

            *px = 0;
            *py += 42;
            *px += 24;

            println!("x, y, z: {}, {}, {}", *px, *py, *pz);
        }
    }

It makes sense that the Rust "raw pointers" `*const i32` and `*mut
i32` are fine here, and that taking Rust "references" `& i32` and
`&mut i32` causes UB, since Rust "references" have aliasing rules that
must be followed.

Best, VJ.

  reply	other threads:[~2025-02-24 16:57 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 196+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2025-02-22 10:06 Ventura Jack
2025-02-22 14:15 ` Gary Guo
2025-02-22 15:03   ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-22 18:54     ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-22 19:18       ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-22 20:00         ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-22 20:54           ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-22 21:22             ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-22 21:46               ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-22 22:34                 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-22 23:56                   ` Jan Engelhardt
2025-02-22 22:12               ` David Laight
2025-02-22 22:46                 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-22 23:50               ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-23  0:06                 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-22 21:22             ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-23 15:30         ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-23 16:28           ` David Laight
2025-02-24  0:27           ` Gary Guo
2025-02-24  9:57             ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-24 10:31               ` Benno Lossin
2025-02-24 12:21                 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-24 12:47                   ` Benno Lossin
2025-02-24 16:57                     ` Ventura Jack [this message]
2025-02-24 22:03                       ` Benno Lossin
2025-02-24 23:04                         ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-25 22:38                           ` Benno Lossin
2025-02-25 22:47                             ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-25 23:03                               ` Benno Lossin
2025-02-24 12:58           ` Theodore Ts'o
2025-02-24 14:47             ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-24 14:54               ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-24 16:42                 ` Philip Herron
2025-02-25 15:55                   ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-25 17:30                     ` Arthur Cohen
2025-02-26 11:38               ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-24 15:43             ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-24 17:24               ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-25 16:12           ` Alice Ryhl
2025-02-25 17:21             ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-25 17:36               ` Alice Ryhl
2025-02-25 18:16                 ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-25 20:21                   ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-25 20:37                     ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-26 13:03                     ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 13:53                       ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-26 14:07                         ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 14:26                         ` James Bottomley
2025-02-26 14:37                           ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 14:39                           ` Greg KH
2025-02-26 14:45                             ` James Bottomley
2025-02-26 16:00                               ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 16:42                                 ` James Bottomley
2025-02-26 16:47                                   ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-26 16:57                                     ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 17:41                                       ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-26 17:47                                         ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 22:07                                           ` Josh Poimboeuf
2025-03-02 12:19                                           ` David Laight
2025-02-26 17:11                           ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-26 17:42                             ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-26 12:36                 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 13:52                   ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-26 15:21                     ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 16:06                       ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 17:49                       ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-26 18:36                         ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 14:14                   ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 15:40                     ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 16:10                       ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 16:50                         ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 21:39                           ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-27 15:11                             ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-27 15:32                               ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-25 18:54             ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-25 19:47               ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-25 20:25                 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-25 20:55                   ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-25 21:24                     ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-25 23:34                       ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-26 11:57                         ` Gary Guo
2025-02-27 14:43                           ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 14:26                         ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-25 22:45                   ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-26  0:05                     ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-25 22:42                 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-26 14:01                   ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 13:54               ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 17:59                 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-26 19:01                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2025-02-26 20:00                   ` Martin Uecker
2025-02-26 21:14                     ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-26 21:21                       ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-26 22:54                         ` David Laight
2025-02-27  0:35                           ` Paul E. McKenney
2025-02-26 21:26                       ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 21:37                         ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 21:42                         ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-26 21:56                           ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 22:13                             ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 22:22                               ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-26 22:35                                 ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 23:18                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-26 23:28                                     ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-27  0:04                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-27 20:47                                   ` David Laight
2025-02-27 21:33                                     ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-28 21:29                                       ` Paul E. McKenney
2025-02-27 21:41                                     ` Paul E. McKenney
2025-02-27 22:20                                       ` David Laight
2025-02-27 22:40                                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2025-02-28  7:44                                     ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-28 15:41                                       ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-28 15:46                                         ` Boqun Feng
2025-02-28 16:04                                           ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-28 16:13                                             ` Boqun Feng
2025-02-28 16:21                                               ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-28 16:40                                                 ` Boqun Feng
2025-03-04 18:12                                         ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 22:27                       ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-26 23:16                         ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-27  0:17                           ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-27  0:26                           ` comex
2025-02-27 18:33                           ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-27 19:15                             ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-27 19:55                               ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-27 20:28                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-28  7:53                               ` Ralf Jung
2025-03-06 19:16                           ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-27  4:18                       ` Martin Uecker
2025-02-27  5:52                         ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-27  6:56                           ` Martin Uecker
2025-02-27 14:29                             ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-27 17:35                               ` Paul E. McKenney
2025-02-27 18:13                                 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-27 19:10                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2025-02-27 18:00                           ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-27 18:44                           ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-27 14:21                     ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-27 15:27                       ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-28  8:08                     ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-28  8:32                       ` Martin Uecker
2025-02-26 20:25                   ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-26 20:34                     ` Andy Lutomirski
2025-02-26 22:45                   ` David Laight
2025-02-22 19:41       ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-22 20:49         ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-26 11:34           ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 14:57             ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 16:32               ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 18:09                 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 22:28                   ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 23:08                     ` David Laight
2025-02-27 13:55                       ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-27 17:33                     ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-27 17:58                       ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-27 19:06                         ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-27 19:45                           ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-27 20:22                             ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-27 22:18                               ` David Laight
2025-02-27 23:18                                 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-28  7:38                                   ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-28 20:48                                   ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-28 20:41                             ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-28 22:13                               ` Geoffrey Thomas
2025-03-01 14:19                                 ` Ventura Jack
2025-03-04 18:24                               ` Ralf Jung
2025-03-06 18:49                                 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-27 17:58                       ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-27 19:25                         ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 19:07                 ` Martin Uecker
2025-02-26 19:23                   ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 20:22                     ` Martin Uecker
     [not found] <CAFJgqgRZ1w0ONj2wbcczx2=boXYHoLOd=-ke7tHGBAcifSfPUw@mail.gmail.com>
2025-02-25 15:42 ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-25 16:45   ` Ventura Jack
     [not found] <CANiq72m-R0tOakf=j7BZ78jDHdy=9-fvZbAT8j91Je2Bxy0sFg@mail.gmail.com>
2025-02-18 16:08 ` Rust kernel policy Christoph Hellwig
2025-02-18 18:46   ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-18 21:49     ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-18 22:54       ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-19  0:58         ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-19  3:04           ` Boqun Feng
2025-02-19  5:39             ` Greg KH
2025-02-20 12:28               ` Jan Engelhardt
2025-02-20 12:37                 ` Greg KH
2025-02-20 13:23                   ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-20 15:17                     ` C aggregate passing (Rust kernel policy) Jan Engelhardt
2025-02-20 16:46                       ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-20 20:34                       ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-21  8:31                       ` HUANG Zhaobin
2025-02-21 18:34                       ` David Laight
2025-02-21 19:12                         ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-21 20:07                           ` comex
2025-02-21 21:45                           ` David Laight
2025-02-22  6:32                             ` Willy Tarreau
2025-02-22  6:37                               ` Willy Tarreau
2025-02-22  8:41                                 ` David Laight
2025-02-22  9:11                                   ` Willy Tarreau
2025-02-21 20:06                         ` Jan Engelhardt
2025-02-21 20:23                           ` Laurent Pinchart
2025-02-21 20:24                             ` Laurent Pinchart
2025-02-21 22:02                             ` David Laight
2025-02-21 22:13                               ` Bart Van Assche
2025-02-22  5:56                                 ` comex
2025-02-21 20:26                           ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-21 22:19                             ` henrychurchill
2025-02-21 22:52                             ` henrychurchill

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