From: Ventura Jack <venturajack85@gmail.com>
To: Benno Lossin <benno.lossin@proton.me>
Cc: Gary Guo <gary@garyguo.net>,
Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
Kent Overstreet <kent.overstreet@linux.dev>,
airlied@gmail.com, boqun.feng@gmail.com,
david.laight.linux@gmail.com, ej@inai.de,
gregkh@linuxfoundation.org, hch@infradead.org, hpa@zytor.com,
ksummit@lists.linux.dev, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
miguel.ojeda.sandonis@gmail.com, rust-for-linux@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: C aggregate passing (Rust kernel policy)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 09:57:41 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAFJgqgRdiQ29bWvwsu11yokZb4OFF7pYYUU=ES6CYv9847KgVg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <a4b79751-f1c8-4476-98a5-c59fb2e545ad@proton.me>
On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 5:47 AM Benno Lossin <benno.lossin@proton.me> wrote:
>
> On 24.02.25 13:21, Ventura Jack wrote:
> >
> > From what I can see in the documentation, `&UnsafeCell<T>` also does not
> > behave like `T*` in C. In C, especially if "strict aliasing" is turned
> > off in the
> > compiler, `T*` does not have aliasing requirements. You can have multiple
> > C `T*` pointers pointing to the same object, and mutate the same object.
>
> This is true for `&UnsafeCell<T>`. You can have multiple of those and
> mutate the same value via only shared references. Note that
> `UnsafeCell<T>` is `!Sync`, so it cannot be shared across threads, so
> all of those shared references have to be on the same thread. (there is
> the `SyncUnsafeCell<T>` type that is `Sync`, so it does allow for
> across-thread mutations, but that is much more of a footgun, since you
> still have to synchronize the writes/reads)
>
> > The documentation for `UnsafeCell` conversely spends a lot of space
> > discussing invariants and aliasing requirements.
>
> Yes, since normally in Rust, you can either have exactly one mutable
> reference, or several shared references (which cannot be used to mutate
> a value). `UnsafeCell<T>` is essentially a low-level primitive that can
> only be used with `unsafe` to build for example a mutex.
>
> > I do not understand why you claim:
> >
> > "`&UnsafeCell<T>` behaves like `T*` in C,"
> >
> > That statement is false as far as I can figure out, though I have taken it
> > out of context here.
>
> Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion, the following code is legal
> and sound Rust:
>
> let val = UnsafeCell::new(42);
> let x = &val;
> let y = &val;
> unsafe {
> *x.get() = 0;
> *y.get() = 42;
> *x.get() = 24;
> }
>
> You can't do this with `&mut i32`.
I think I see what you mean. The specific Rust "const reference"
`&UnsafeCell<T>` sort of behaves like C `T*`. But you have to get a
Rust "mutable raw pointer" `*mut T` when working with it using
`UnsafeCell::get()`. And you have to be careful with lifetimes if you
do any casts or share it or certain other things. And to dereference a
Rust "mutable raw pointer", you must use unsafe Rust. And you have to
understand aliasing.
One example I tested against MIRI:
use std::cell::UnsafeCell;
fn main() {
let val: UnsafeCell<i32> = UnsafeCell::new(42);
let x: & UnsafeCell<i32> = &val;
let y: & UnsafeCell<i32> = &val;
unsafe {
// UB.
//let pz: & i32 = & *val.get();
// UB.
//let pz: &mut i32 = &mut *val.get();
// Okay.
//let pz: *const i32 = &raw const *val.get();
// Okay.
let pz: *mut i32 = &raw mut *val.get();
let px: *mut i32 = x.get();
let py: *mut i32 = y.get();
*px = 0;
*py += 42;
*px += 24;
println!("x, y, z: {}, {}, {}", *px, *py, *pz);
}
}
It makes sense that the Rust "raw pointers" `*const i32` and `*mut
i32` are fine here, and that taking Rust "references" `& i32` and
`&mut i32` causes UB, since Rust "references" have aliasing rules that
must be followed.
Best, VJ.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2025-02-24 16:57 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 196+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2025-02-22 10:06 Ventura Jack
2025-02-22 14:15 ` Gary Guo
2025-02-22 15:03 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-22 18:54 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-22 19:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-22 20:00 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-22 20:54 ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-22 21:22 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-22 21:46 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-22 22:34 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-22 23:56 ` Jan Engelhardt
2025-02-22 22:12 ` David Laight
2025-02-22 22:46 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-22 23:50 ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-23 0:06 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-22 21:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-23 15:30 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-23 16:28 ` David Laight
2025-02-24 0:27 ` Gary Guo
2025-02-24 9:57 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-24 10:31 ` Benno Lossin
2025-02-24 12:21 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-24 12:47 ` Benno Lossin
2025-02-24 16:57 ` Ventura Jack [this message]
2025-02-24 22:03 ` Benno Lossin
2025-02-24 23:04 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-25 22:38 ` Benno Lossin
2025-02-25 22:47 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-25 23:03 ` Benno Lossin
2025-02-24 12:58 ` Theodore Ts'o
2025-02-24 14:47 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-24 14:54 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-24 16:42 ` Philip Herron
2025-02-25 15:55 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-25 17:30 ` Arthur Cohen
2025-02-26 11:38 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-24 15:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-24 17:24 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-25 16:12 ` Alice Ryhl
2025-02-25 17:21 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-25 17:36 ` Alice Ryhl
2025-02-25 18:16 ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-25 20:21 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-25 20:37 ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-26 13:03 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 13:53 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-26 14:07 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 14:26 ` James Bottomley
2025-02-26 14:37 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 14:39 ` Greg KH
2025-02-26 14:45 ` James Bottomley
2025-02-26 16:00 ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 16:42 ` James Bottomley
2025-02-26 16:47 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-26 16:57 ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 17:41 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-26 17:47 ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 22:07 ` Josh Poimboeuf
2025-03-02 12:19 ` David Laight
2025-02-26 17:11 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-26 17:42 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-26 12:36 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 13:52 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-26 15:21 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 16:06 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 17:49 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-26 18:36 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 14:14 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 15:40 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 16:10 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 16:50 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 21:39 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-27 15:11 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-27 15:32 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-25 18:54 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-25 19:47 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-25 20:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-25 20:55 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-25 21:24 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-25 23:34 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-26 11:57 ` Gary Guo
2025-02-27 14:43 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 14:26 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-25 22:45 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-26 0:05 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-25 22:42 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-26 14:01 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 13:54 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 17:59 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-26 19:01 ` Paul E. McKenney
2025-02-26 20:00 ` Martin Uecker
2025-02-26 21:14 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-26 21:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-26 22:54 ` David Laight
2025-02-27 0:35 ` Paul E. McKenney
2025-02-26 21:26 ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 21:37 ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 21:42 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-26 21:56 ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 22:13 ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 22:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-26 22:35 ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-26 23:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-26 23:28 ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-27 0:04 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-27 20:47 ` David Laight
2025-02-27 21:33 ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-28 21:29 ` Paul E. McKenney
2025-02-27 21:41 ` Paul E. McKenney
2025-02-27 22:20 ` David Laight
2025-02-27 22:40 ` Paul E. McKenney
2025-02-28 7:44 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-28 15:41 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-28 15:46 ` Boqun Feng
2025-02-28 16:04 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-28 16:13 ` Boqun Feng
2025-02-28 16:21 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-28 16:40 ` Boqun Feng
2025-03-04 18:12 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 22:27 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-26 23:16 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-27 0:17 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-27 0:26 ` comex
2025-02-27 18:33 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-27 19:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-27 19:55 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-27 20:28 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-28 7:53 ` Ralf Jung
2025-03-06 19:16 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-27 4:18 ` Martin Uecker
2025-02-27 5:52 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-27 6:56 ` Martin Uecker
2025-02-27 14:29 ` Steven Rostedt
2025-02-27 17:35 ` Paul E. McKenney
2025-02-27 18:13 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-27 19:10 ` Paul E. McKenney
2025-02-27 18:00 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-27 18:44 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-27 14:21 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-27 15:27 ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-28 8:08 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-28 8:32 ` Martin Uecker
2025-02-26 20:25 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-26 20:34 ` Andy Lutomirski
2025-02-26 22:45 ` David Laight
2025-02-22 19:41 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-22 20:49 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-26 11:34 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 14:57 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 16:32 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 18:09 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 22:28 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 23:08 ` David Laight
2025-02-27 13:55 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-27 17:33 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-27 17:58 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-27 19:06 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-27 19:45 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-27 20:22 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-27 22:18 ` David Laight
2025-02-27 23:18 ` Kent Overstreet
2025-02-28 7:38 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-28 20:48 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-28 20:41 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-28 22:13 ` Geoffrey Thomas
2025-03-01 14:19 ` Ventura Jack
2025-03-04 18:24 ` Ralf Jung
2025-03-06 18:49 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-27 17:58 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-27 19:25 ` Ventura Jack
2025-02-26 19:07 ` Martin Uecker
2025-02-26 19:23 ` Ralf Jung
2025-02-26 20:22 ` Martin Uecker
[not found] <CAFJgqgRZ1w0ONj2wbcczx2=boXYHoLOd=-ke7tHGBAcifSfPUw@mail.gmail.com>
2025-02-25 15:42 ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-25 16:45 ` Ventura Jack
[not found] <CANiq72m-R0tOakf=j7BZ78jDHdy=9-fvZbAT8j91Je2Bxy0sFg@mail.gmail.com>
2025-02-18 16:08 ` Rust kernel policy Christoph Hellwig
2025-02-18 18:46 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-18 21:49 ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-18 22:54 ` Miguel Ojeda
2025-02-19 0:58 ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-19 3:04 ` Boqun Feng
2025-02-19 5:39 ` Greg KH
2025-02-20 12:28 ` Jan Engelhardt
2025-02-20 12:37 ` Greg KH
2025-02-20 13:23 ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-20 15:17 ` C aggregate passing (Rust kernel policy) Jan Engelhardt
2025-02-20 16:46 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-20 20:34 ` H. Peter Anvin
2025-02-21 8:31 ` HUANG Zhaobin
2025-02-21 18:34 ` David Laight
2025-02-21 19:12 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-21 20:07 ` comex
2025-02-21 21:45 ` David Laight
2025-02-22 6:32 ` Willy Tarreau
2025-02-22 6:37 ` Willy Tarreau
2025-02-22 8:41 ` David Laight
2025-02-22 9:11 ` Willy Tarreau
2025-02-21 20:06 ` Jan Engelhardt
2025-02-21 20:23 ` Laurent Pinchart
2025-02-21 20:24 ` Laurent Pinchart
2025-02-21 22:02 ` David Laight
2025-02-21 22:13 ` Bart Van Assche
2025-02-22 5:56 ` comex
2025-02-21 20:26 ` Linus Torvalds
2025-02-21 22:19 ` henrychurchill
2025-02-21 22:52 ` henrychurchill
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