From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail-yb1-f181.google.com (mail-yb1-f181.google.com [209.85.219.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC0147F for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2023 13:37:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-yb1-f181.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-d712d86eb96so4084261276.3 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2023 06:37:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=linaro.org; s=google; t=1692711453; x=1693316253; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=C606uuUpSYJFNSQZG00xV98rnJ+iBpRSVOquWX+rjL0=; b=eI8zXq8mSJiYf7Xa8OCOfRlCJ/LO+xMCKBiwsoPG706Ji6zknd4L/PI6Wn4hEzsbU5 49AvtpnLLKv5Cfq11A5zIyG1M71O0R6YKUBrBxmQRXNwoO6+keJY+wEj6rVYD+4JiaQx jS0xM7puxxwk6egmwfptiE49XxLRinj6inN6z8dzD/9VPHnidot9rJREQ2XVnvppptIl GupxNx92gQ1SbgsiH5SBDze6Zki0I0ym010HJfUVtB5TIaLJA18hQU910C3DoIqYIuID YoFy23y4LbEKvBxVHL3TTmi33yGM+D6VWXrTNLz5MdpSF5bXVbCJfR8c/CuX8+VEjTYr bsIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1692711453; x=1693316253; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=C606uuUpSYJFNSQZG00xV98rnJ+iBpRSVOquWX+rjL0=; b=bPeDBx9Tq1rDZNCZ5+KudhvBev5Pu8NJXqHp4GL0WgToPJz6w5KHRtx4owveDGvT0w 3AdhWSklAIQOKL97Mxi0Xp0A1bPqjDoPCrj6M723ta7qeO6HR4t1HhNMgftkZQE05gph H0fO2lmSsYHydO9xDbodH/V+qtJ4pMU2S4Q3hjBqJapCXHQZWiVN0N/XgwzFavIj3/sU ZnEW9VE6dqTBhdClwe1o/XLdvJp3DnXCdYAGx0w9fsvwDq9vPai7/zJ3PBVu7pOEkXhv Ary5umKlF5ZSFJGpu98bqcW1cYaVSSCikLwzweAvE3wqPUGALGlEt+sS4thKx7ZIKNkp kurg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwkhRJlNB/i9cE9w1T8HSP8sZWACdUn+ZSKZfp5jBmvPlT2/qdl ycMlQhfwUIwy5SCOE1ehLC6nvAwmryamOGt8P4u1Tg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IELrajRvHqvaYE0UHfTT2/iuqTSk0+eMG8XS/sLh5BWPntIKEpacAciv8nNpUJMlwHRG8y5shAAmO5Jh99tHus= X-Received: by 2002:a25:234e:0:b0:d12:bae1:f324 with SMTP id j75-20020a25234e000000b00d12bae1f324mr8713286ybj.18.1692711453466; Tue, 22 Aug 2023 06:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <64e404a979f54_4c1f3294d3@dwillia2-mobl3.amr.corp.intel.com.notmuch> <2023082250-replace-rectangle-1d47@gregkh> In-Reply-To: <2023082250-replace-rectangle-1d47@gregkh> From: Linus Walleij Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2023 15:37:21 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Between a rock and a hard place, managing expectations... To: Greg KH Cc: Dan Williams , ksummit@lists.linux.dev Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dan wrote: > Standardization helps, but there is often a "system-software > implementation-specific" gap that a standard leaves for an operating > system to resolve. Linux is nowadays a first mover, and a primary > deployment target. When we designed pin control, I first made an iteration which we had to throw away, keeping the old quote from "the mythical man-month" in mind, "always count on throwing one version away". The same happened with the GPIO character device. v2 looks good. We need to realize at least from what I've seen, that Fred Brooks was right about this. Always having to throw the first version away is the most obvious pattern that we should always expect, yet fail repeatedly to account for and always get annoyed at. Why? It is expected. Greg wrote: Why not have the community "fight it out" among themselves first, before > we have to worry about it? We can be a bit proactive with this, but it's more of elusive entrepreneurship or magical coincidence when we do, and the work happens seemingly unorganized. The v2 pin control was designed in a conference room at the Embedded Linux Conference in San Diego 2012 I think. nVidia, Texas Instruments and Renesas were there, possibly more. We had a whiteboard. That ended up with with the lines hooking it up in drivers/base/dd.c and that is still the core behaviour. It wasn't a fight, more like a good version of committee work, like a committee without any prestige. Collect the key people in the same geographical location and talk it over, magic happens. Sometimes, at least. It's worth a try. Yours, Linus Walleij