From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FB50B09 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:21:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wr1-f43.google.com (mail-wr1-f43.google.com [209.85.221.43]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F7F7709 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:21:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wr1-f43.google.com with SMTP id n1-v6so11120042wrt.10 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:21:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6108593.JtmfA2IdsK@avalon> In-Reply-To: From: Rodrigo Vivi Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:21:42 -0700 Message-ID: To: "jonsmirl@gmail.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000078b66a05776c116f" Cc: ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] New CoC and Brendan Eich List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --00000000000078b66a05776c116f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 12:06 PM jonsmirl@gmail.com wrote: > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:32 PM Laurent Pinchart > wrote: > > > > Hi Jon, > > > > On Thursday, 4 October 2018 19:23:33 EEST jonsmirl@gmail.com wrote: > > > I would highly recommend getting the new CoC reviewed and approved by > > > some of the very smart lawyers that help out the Linux community. I > > > would also recommend discussing the Brendan Eich situation at Ksummit. > > > A situation like this needs to be planned for since an improper > > > response will make things much worse leading to legal challenges. > > > > > > Some random articles to refresh everyone's memory... > > > > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/ > > > > digital-media/10743456/Mozilla-chief-Brendan-Eich-steps-down-over-gay-marria > > > ge-row.html > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/07/brendan-eich-has-the-> > right-to-fight-gay-rights-but-not-to-be-mozillas-ceo > > > https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-26868536 > > > > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/technology-topics/10745283/Brendan-Ei > > > > ch-is-a-homophobe-Im-a-lesbian-and-neither-of-us-deserves-to-lose-our-jobs.h > > > tml > > > > We're facing a textbook case that has a probability of generating heated > > discussions no lower than 100%. I remember having a pretty strong > opinion on > > the topic when it came under public scrutiny (and while I generally > don't mind > > discussing it, I won't disclose that opinion here as that's entirely > > irrelevant). The more interesting part was that waiting for the debate > to cool > > down gave me time to think, and realize that what is often perceived as a > > black-and-white situation most often turns out to be more complex than > > initially perceived. > > > > One point that I would like to explore is thus how we can take the time > needed > > to solve such matters when the mob is waiting outside of the courtroom > with > > tar and feathers. I don't want to discuss here what our response to such > a > > case should be, but the process that we should follow to come up with a > > response. It is of paramount importance in my opinion for the body > tasked with > > handling those issues to follow a process that ensures it will be able > to keep > > a cool head and have enough time available to think the response > carefully. > > What is going to happen when someone gets fired after being accused of > violating the CoC and they lose $20M in options? INAL but it appears > to me that the CoC has created lawsuit exposure for all of the > maintainers. This CoC really needs to be vetted by the kernel legal > team. > you mean If someone gets fired for violating respect to the other human being in public?! I'm afraid this already happen around the world. And I never saw anyone blaming news or social networks for that. The cause of this consequence is on the speech itself, not on the channels.... > > > > > Another point that I believe is important is the issue of > representation. The > > code of conduct mentions both "project" and "community". While neither > are > > defined, the term project is quite straightforward, but the term > community not > > really so. The code of conduct gives a mandate to the TAB to handle > > enforcement in the name of the project (I don't want to focus here on > whether > > the TAB is the right instance to handle those issues, this will likely be > > discusses separately and possibly be changed, I will just use TAB here to > > refer to the code of conduct enforcement body for simplicity), and I > would > > argue that the mandate extends to representing the community as a whole. > When > > the TAB will have to decide on a case that will generate a wide > diversity of > > opinions, what kind of process can we put in place to ensure that all > > community members will feel represented (and thus heard) ? To put it > > differently, how can we make sure that the community members who don't > fully > > agree with the final decision will agree to disagree and still feel part > of > > the community ? > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Laurent Pinchart > > > > > > > > > -- > Jon Smirl > jonsmirl@gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > Ksummit-discuss mailing list > Ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ksummit-discuss > --00000000000078b66a05776c116f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu= , Oct 4, 2018 at 12:06 PM jonsmirl@gm= ail.com <jonsmirl@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at= 2:32 PM Laurent Pinchart
<= laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Jon,
>
> On Thursday, 4 October 2018 19:23:33 EEST jonsmirl@gmail.com wrote:
> > I would highly recommend getting the new CoC reviewed and approve= d by
> > some of the very smart lawyers that help out the Linux community.= =C2=A0 I
> > would also recommend discussing the Brendan Eich situation at Ksu= mmit.
> > A situation like this needs to be planned for since an improper > > response will make things much worse leading to legal challenges.=
> >
> > Some random articles to refresh everyone's memory...
> > https://www.te= legraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/
> > digital-media/10743456/Mozilla-chief-Brendan-Eich-steps-down-over= -gay-marria
> > ge-row.html
> > https://www.the= guardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/07/brendan-eich-has-the-> right-= to-fight-gay-rights-but-not-to-be-mozillas-ceo
> > https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-26868536
> > https://www.te= legraph.co.uk/technology/technology-topics/10745283/Brendan-Ei
> > ch-is-a-homophobe-Im-a-lesbian-and-neither-of-us-deserves-to-lose= -our-jobs.h
> > tml
>
> We're facing a textbook case that has a probability of generating = heated
> discussions no lower than 100%. I remember having a pretty strong opin= ion on
> the topic when it came under public scrutiny (and while I generally do= n't mind
> discussing it, I won't disclose that opinion here as that's en= tirely
> irrelevant). The more interesting part was that waiting for the debate= to cool
> down gave me time to think, and realize that what is often perceived a= s a
> black-and-white situation most often turns out to be more complex than=
> initially perceived.
>
> One point that I would like to explore is thus how we can take the tim= e needed
> to solve such matters when the mob is waiting outside of the courtroom= with
> tar and feathers. I don't want to discuss here what our response t= o such a
> case should be, but the process that we should follow to come up with = a
> response. It is of paramount importance in my opinion for the body tas= ked with
> handling those issues to follow a process that ensures it will be able= to keep
> a cool head and have enough time available to think the response caref= ully.

What is going to happen when someone gets fired after being accused of
violating the CoC and they lose $20M in options? INAL but it appears
to me that the CoC has created lawsuit exposure for all of the
maintainers. This CoC really needs to be vetted by the kernel legal
team.

you mean If someone gets fired fo= r violating respect to the other human being in public?!
I'm = afraid this already happen around the world. And I never saw anyone blaming= news or social networks for that. The cause of this consequence is on the = speech itself, not on the channels....=C2=A0
=C2=A0

>
> Another point that I believe is important is the issue of representati= on. The
> code of conduct mentions both "project" and "community&= quot;. While neither are
> defined, the term project is quite straightforward, but the term commu= nity not
> really so. The code of conduct gives a mandate to the TAB to handle > enforcement in the name of the project (I don't want to focus here= on whether
> the TAB is the right instance to handle those issues, this will likely= be
> discusses separately and possibly be changed, I will just use TAB here= to
> refer to the code of conduct enforcement body for simplicity), and I w= ould
> argue that the mandate extends to representing the community as a whol= e. When
> the TAB will have to decide on a case that will generate a wide divers= ity of
> opinions, what kind of process can we put in place to ensure that all<= br> > community members will feel represented (and thus heard) ? To put it > differently, how can we make sure that the community members who don&#= 39;t fully
> agree with the final decision will agree to disagree and still feel pa= rt of
> the community ?
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Laurent Pinchart
>
>
>


--
Jon Smirl
jonsmirl@gmail.com<= /a>
_______________________________________________
Ksummit-discuss mailing list
Ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/= mailman/listinfo/ksummit-discuss
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