From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6436E723 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 04:25:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx1.suse.de (mx2.suse.de [195.135.220.15]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 996C8E6 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 04:25:21 +0000 (UTC) From: NeilBrown To: Al Viro Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 15:25:08 +1100 In-Reply-To: <20181023033130.GQ32577@ZenIV.linux.org.uk> References: <20181020134908.GA32218@kroah.com> <87y3ar80ac.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> <20181021222608.GA24845@localhost> <875zxt919d.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> <20181023033130.GQ32577@ZenIV.linux.org.uk> Message-ID: <87r2gh70ij.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Cc: ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Mishi Choudhary , Greg Kroah-Hartman , linux-kernel Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 23 2018, Al Viro wrote: > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 07:26:06AM +1100, NeilBrown wrote: > >> Currently if a maintainer is rude to you, there is no where else that >> you can go and *that* is why it hurts. It isn't the abuse so much as >> the powerlessness associated with it. If you can (metaphorically) say >> to that maintainer "I don't care about your toilet mouth, you've just >> given me the right to take my petition to caesar" - then the emotional >> response will be quite different to pain. > > Bollocks. First of all, you *always* can take patches to Linus, even if > maintainer is being the sodding Miss Manners. Always could. What you > can't (and shouldn't be able to) is to _force_ a piece of shit patch > (pardon the toilet mouth) into the tree on the grounds of maintainer havi= ng > been "rude" to your patch. Yes, you could, and you can. But if it was Linus who was behaving inappropriately, where did you go then? This is why I think whatever "code" we have should be overtly a statement Linus makes about his behaviour, in the first instance. And of course a bad patch should be rejected. In many cases a bad patch can then be improved. If the maintainer responds badly to your first (bad) patch, it can be very hard to try again - once bitten twice shy, as they say. The point of being able to circumvent a maintainer is to be able to get relevant rational review, instead of emotional attacks. > > Again, you can and always could appeal to Linus if your patches are wrong= ly > rejected, in your opinion. You'd better have good evidence supporting the > "wrongly" bit in that case, but the "right to petition" model implies that > anyway. I wonder how many people know about this right-to-petition, or use it. Maybe it should be stated in the "Code of conduct". > > If you are talking about the situations when "rude" maintainer makes insu= fferable > requests to one's precious patches (e.g. demonstrates his or her mental i= nferiority > by admitting that they are unable to follow contributor's 0.5KLoC of spag= hetty in a > single function and has an unspeakable gall to demand to clean it up - in= stead of > passing that task upon the interns, as they ought to[1])... sure, that wo= uld be > something new. Would you care to be the person charged with dealing with= such... > valuable contributors? And how good is the coverage of psychiatric treat= ments > offered by your medical insurance? > > [1] no, I'm not making it up >=20=20 >> If Linus is not true to his new-found sensitivity, we might need someone >> (Greg?) to be a co-maintainer, able to accept patches when Linus has a >> relapse. It might be good form to create this channel anyway, but I >> doubt it would be needed in practice. >>=20 >> So there you have it. The "Code" is upside down. >> We need documents which: >> - curtail the power of the strong, starting with Linus >> - are adopted willingly by individuals, not imposed on the community. >> - provide alternate routes for patch-flow, so that no-one has ultimate >> power. > > Really? The ultimate power being to say "No" to a patch, and nobody shou= ld > have such? Are you fucking serious? I have noticed of late a tendency in all sorts of different people to hear/read a statement from someone they know, interpret it a particular way, be surprised about that interpretation, and persist with believing that interpretation anyway, rather than realizing that the most likely explanation is a communication failure, and asking for clarification. The "ultimate power" is the ability to say "no" to a patch, *with no opportunity for review*. Two people together having that ultimate power is a totally different thing to one person having it alone. 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