From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFA949FB for ; Sun, 12 Jul 2015 19:52:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from galahad.ideasonboard.com (galahad.ideasonboard.com [185.26.127.97]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3788714F for ; Sun, 12 Jul 2015 19:52:57 +0000 (UTC) From: Laurent Pinchart To: ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 22:53:14 +0300 Message-ID: <6304312.nF1aM0kdfr@avalon> In-Reply-To: <2038754.ape8QT5CKG@vostro.rjw.lan> References: <201507080121.41463.PeterHuewe@gmx.de> <20150708221836.GN23515@io.lakedaemon.net> <2038754.ape8QT5CKG@vostro.rjw.lan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cc: Jason Cooper Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [CORE TOPIC] Recruitment (Reviewers, Testers, Maintainers, Hobbyists) List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , On Thursday 09 July 2015 01:09:00 Rafael J. Wysocki wrote: > On Wednesday, July 08, 2015 10:18:36 PM Jason Cooper wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 08, 2015 at 09:29:57PM +0200, Peter Huewe wrote: > > > > > For testers it's usually even worse - how many patches are actually > > > > > tested? Judging from what I read on LKML not that many. > > > > > > > > > > So we should definitely discuss: > > > > > - how can we encourage hobbyists to become regular contributors > > > > > -- how to keep people interested, the drop-out rates are huge. > > > > > > > > Here we need to have the correct mindset. Kernel development is hard, > > > > detailed work. It's very rewarding, but simply put, most people aren't > > > > cut out to do it. I view the dropout rate as a *good* thing. It's a > > > > _selection_ process more than a education/training process. > > > > > > > > With most of the hard jobs in life, take a look at the > > > > training/education program, and you'll see it: 80% drop out rate? > > > > That's selection. Kernel work is one of those 'hard jobs'. > > > > > > > > This is important to realize because it changes how we view > > > > recruitment. We shouldn't be trying to keep everybody we recruit. > > > > Rather, we should be giving more people trial runs and see how they > > > > work out as they learn the process. > > > > > > > > iow, if an 80% drop out rate gives us the caliber of dev we need for > > > > the long term health of the community, then it's a numbers game. Say > > > > we saw 40 new people last year, which turned into 8 regular > > > > contributors. Now we want to double that. We can lower the standard to > > > > get 16 out of 40, yuck. Or, we can outreach to 80 for trial runs, and > > > > get 16. > > > > > > I think that's an interesting take on the topic - although I'm not > > > 100% whether I agree with everything. I agree that our goal is not to > > > lower the standards, and also using more "trial runs". > > > > > > However high standards should not be the reason to drive people away -- > > > and especially not the reason not to keep good people interested. > > > > Sure, I'm not suggesting anything like testing or anything formal. > > Merely that everyone understand there's an attrition rate, and that's > > *ok*. > > > > Recruitment, imo, isn't about trying to keep everyone that tries. > > Rather it's about opening the doors and providing real opportunities for > > more people to contribute. > > The opportunities are there, but in addition to the opportunities themselves > people need some incentives to use them. It's all about their time which > they can spend in many ways, some of them more rewarding than others. > > If they don't have an incentive, an opportunity itself may not be > sufficient. We also need to ensure that the opportunities can be identified as such by potential newcomers. As core kernel contributors it's easy for us to see the myriad of places where a newcomer could help, but it's much harder to do so when you have no experience with kernel development. Projects such as kernel janitors can help in that regard, but might not be enough. There's also the issue that the kernel (and its developers) is often seen as a scary beast. I've heard too many programmers saying that contributing to the Linux kernel is too difficult, without having given it a try. We are seen as experts by the outside world. There's nothing wrong with that as such, but I believe we should work on broadcasting the message that newcomers should still give it a try. -- Regards, Laurent Pinchart