From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lamorak.hansenpartnership.com (lamorak.hansenpartnership.com [198.37.111.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E988255F24 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2025 15:31:53 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=198.37.111.173 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1755876714; cv=none; b=usplGbkzPEWQxvM6MIFwW+/S0hSbrRcsFk8WEl0FDr+WGwu5sVyPLU8VYjZlZOdsj0Yh0BJU3fN0wxASQV+ZDGdMR+xeXy6BIY7bIc/AoVgqk4FK0Prpwbb/ciNvtp1Qlo/GW+agMCwuq5ij28U0oC7GJsw7jiRoTl740hvWj1A= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1755876714; c=relaxed/simple; bh=3zLWjKbV8wuG+Rp4iQlIxh11111uRe5B2QeXuo2dNXA=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:MIME-Version; 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2025 16:31:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20250822122424.GA34412@macsyma.lan> References: <20250821203407.GA1284215@mit.edu> <940ac5ad8a6b1daa239d748e8f77479a140b050d.camel@HansenPartnership.com> <2025082202-lankiness-talisman-3803@gregkh> <20250822122424.GA34412@macsyma.lan> Autocrypt: addr=James.Bottomley@HansenPartnership.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; 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 8mT2Eh9SkH+YVOmaKsajgZgrBxA7fWmGoxXswEVxJIFj3vW7yNc0C5HaUdYa5iGOMs4kg2ht4s7yy7NRQuh7BifWjo6BQ6k4S1H+6axZucxhSV1L6zN9d+lr3Xo/vy1unzA== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.50.3 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 On Fri, 2025-08-22 at 08:24 -0400, Theodore Tso wrote: > On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 02:03:13PM +0200, Greg KH wrote: > >=20 > > It's not our job to quell "internet speculation", sorry.=C2=A0 Just > > because we normally work in public for almost everything, doesn't > > mean that some things can't be done in private as well.=C2=A0 And again= , > > just because you haven't seen a public decision doesn't mean that > > there hasn't been one made :) >=20 > The other thing I'll add here is that the best analogy I can think of > here is that this is a HR / Personnel issue.=C2=A0 These sorts of things, > whether they are a matter of someone not working well with the team > (at which point the manager needs to figure out how to resolve the > issue, and will often need to engage in private mediation / > interventions), or being caught on camera at a Coldplay concert, will > always have private conversations that will never be made part of the > public record --- as it should be, as much as content creators > looking for clickbait might wish otherwise. >=20 > Now, if what James is trying to say is that we could have avoided the > whole situation by refusing to allow bcachefs to be included in the > first place, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that > proposal as a way to avoid problems in the future. I did tackle that in the original proposal: https://lore.kernel.org/all/fc0994de40776609928e8e438355a24a54f1ad10.camel@= HansenPartnership.com/ But for those who didn't read it the precis is I said on reflection I wouldn't ban anything at the inclusion stage even though that's what I initially argued for > I'm not sure that the fact that various developer-to-developer > relationships would have degraded to the point that it had by the end > of this whole saga could have been predicted at the point when we > were making the "to include or not to include bcachefs in Linux > mainline". I don't think we could have predicted whether or not a > perspective future maintainer would utterly refuse private offers of > coaching from the beginning.=C2=A0 And I don't think we should proactivel= y > refuse to accept a feature just because someone's inter-personal > relationships are not perfect. I think one takeaway is that there were a bunch of predictions which ultimately turned out to be true and to make a success of it we should have had a plan for coping with the foreseen issues. > The current baseline is that the media subsystem, networking, or BPF > maintainer's decide what features to accept and who they will accept > pull requests from.=C2=A0 The same us true all the way up the hierarchy > maintainer tree up to Linus.=C2=A0 What is the alternative that we could > use?=C2=A0 That some democratic voting procedure, or some kind of core > team would stick their oar into making this decision?=C2=A0 I'm not sure > that would be an improvement; in fact, IMHO, it will very likely be > significantly worse. When did this become about how our current maintainer pull system works? I'm certainly not advocating changing it. > I'm sure that as a result of this whole sitution, maintainers may > very well be more careful before accepting a new feature from a > perspective submaintainer who might be challenged in the teamwork > department.=C2=A0 But I'm not sure trying to codify this would be helpful > --- because I fundamentally disagree with the premise that we can > accurately predict how future stories will end.=C2=A0 Hindsight, after > all, is 20/20. I don't think anyone made that premise. However, when problems are foreseen its not unreasonable to plan to try to overcome them and be successful. > If someone wants to suggest a concrete proposal, perhaps that's > something we can discuss.=C2=A0 But my personal opinion is having an > open-ended discussion of how we could have avoided the messiness of > bcachefs would probably not be a good use of time at the Maintainer's > Summit. Well I did ask for two concrete things, but I can certainly repeat: On Fri, 2025-08-22 at 09:09 +0100, James Bottomley wrote: > I think I'd be happy if we sort out two things >=20 > 1. That the decision be taken by more than one person rather than > abdicating to last man standing > 2. The outcome be documented clearly. >=20 Regards, James