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355b3faa-8874-4e38-beb7-08db9e87eecf X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: PH0PR10MB5433.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Aug 2023 18:38:07.0239 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: 2bWWyUuO5EQtCp0D6fofJqUJu7SpSgYOY/Oh3LrYzVezv4qa+RO7Nh4VWlk/DWza4IevFDKm9mxEpoCW+RjEVpBcI59enjTLlqCbN2PisH8= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN7PR10MB6521 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.267,Aquarius:18.0.957,Hydra:6.0.601,FMLib:17.11.176.26 definitions=2023-08-16_18,2023-08-15_02,2023-05-22_02 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2306200000 definitions=main-2308160163 X-Proofpoint-GUID: vqBjuL5XW9LXBj15RQqOHrrQDLQyEsyP X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: vqBjuL5XW9LXBj15RQqOHrrQDLQyEsyP On 8/16/23 00:17, Jiri Kosina wrote: > On Tue, 15 Aug 2023, Greg KH wrote: > >> Why are they not just doing what the huge majority of Linux users doing >> and taking the "feed of known issues that resolve problems before they >> are public knowledge" that we provide today for free to them? Because >> they somehow think that knowing a specific single bugfix is more special >> than all of those other bugfixes, which honestly, is just loony. > > If you'd like me to turn this proposal into "What can we do to make sure > that most major distros are eventually basing their kernels on -stable" > discussion, I'd be happy to do that, but I believe this has been discussed > quite extensively already. I really think these are two different and orthogonal topics and we ought to treat them separately: tracking stable vs. having advance notice for some vulnerabilities. (Regarding tracking stable, I fully agree that all distros should be keeping up with stable and not just cherry-picking specific fixes or whatever commits happen to have a CVE assigned. No contest there.) This proposal is about embargoed security issues, issues that were reported because somebody knows (or has good reason to suspect) that an issue is exploitable and is planning to disclose that fact publicly. I posit that there is objectively a difference between: a) vulnerabilities that have been discovered and reported by a security researcher and where a detailed analysis and/or PoCs/exploits are certain to be made published publicly; and b) patches that appear in mainline/stable with no vulnerability analysis and no known exploit vector. I agree that both categories of issues may be equally serious or equally exploitable, so the difference is in the fact that somebody has done a thorough analysis of specific bugs and/or is planning to disclose that publicly. If distros are only made aware of a vulnerability when it is disclosed publicly by a security researcher, that leaves a window of opportunity for attackers -- patches that appear in stable do not immediately make it onto end-user systems for a variety of reasons: the time it takes to backport the patch (as most distros carry at least some out-of-tree patches), testing/validation (especially if there were conflicts or other issues with the patch), and then of course the time it takes end-user to upgrade. I think several distros at this point are making use of live patching technology -- for really critical vulnerabilities, this has the potential to reduce that window to very close to zero: live patching updates that are available and can be applied from the moment the vulnerability is disclosed publicly. So it really isn't a choice between one or the other -- the best security for end users is when we do both. (I should add that I don't think anybody is really asking for a private feed of s@k.o -- IMHO the best solution would be for security researchers to notify the distros list when s@k.o has a tentative or final patch, before disclosing the vulnerability publicly. The best path I see for that is: 1) relax the linux-distros policy to not require posting more than what the reporter is comfortable disclosing, 2) fix the kernel.org documentation to be clearer for reporters, 3) have a person on s@k.o who can guide the reporter towards linux-distros if they are planning to do a public disclosure anyway.) Thanks, Vegard