From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.kernel.org (aws-us-west-2-korg-mail-1.web.codeaurora.org [10.30.226.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF02438E for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 00:45:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: by smtp.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 27FE8C433C7; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 00:45:48 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kernel.org; s=k20201202; t=1695257148; bh=aG4rGN+gyvqEf85GmMV8R6dvOY8eyqKbiB9Ck15srTc=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=kKG0Hbp9hnwbqiyd7wNoKKIp3QoaaAb9lkp1BBxtLsVWQztmSErJg/A/KW2ySplgb SNuK0MM+pZcoSCRK22DNUN+wDl2I93j0ByYAgHst8LlesERpk/xRM/RDKSVwEIMcJ1 4PlrguXgadgBGEN6h0MeE+oDHjM3DQA9i9uHIra0nqWmieUQuqaPsJIWgNcZTk/cDn iBLEhoYrrTXz4dS8Fqt4CbFYJI/mBRF/6KGjd5kkWbNshd29dGyna/7SXlqXnv5woU fiFlNzz8QrhDmKZrF55qVqWk9Iy9f9Dx68IrHCk4L1ORtRCJyLSOH5dDQTxILpRtez VHaKNt2krwuhA== Message-ID: <38893d55-337e-692d-6eb6-999ae8d515ae@kernel.org> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 18:45:46 -0600 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.15.1 Subject: Re: [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Maintainers Support Group Content-Language: en-US To: Laurent Pinchart Cc: Steven Rostedt , Bart Van Assche , James Bottomley , ksummit@lists.linux.dev, tech-board-discuss@lists.linux-foundation.org, shuah References: <20230919121001.7bc610d4@gandalf.local.home> <20230919132112.19b700df@gandalf.local.home> <496f0b46-1a40-af25-ac1a-d4e7f1a8aad0@kernel.org> <20230919192148.1010cc74@gandalf.local.home> <57b53325-3c40-641e-30de-5755650960f8@kernel.org> <20230920225441.GA12561@pendragon.ideasonboard.com> From: Shuah In-Reply-To: <20230920225441.GA12561@pendragon.ideasonboard.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/20/23 16:54, Laurent Pinchart wrote: > On Wed, Sep 20, 2023 at 01:52:19PM -0600, Shuah wrote: >> On 9/19/23 17:21, Steven Rostedt wrote: >>> On Tue, 19 Sep 2023 16:55:29 -0600 Shuah wrote: >>> >>>> As I replied to Ted and Randy, I think the proposal James pointed to is >>>> where we could start and evolve that discussion to the actions such as >>>> support group, instead of starting with a solution without looking at >>>> the bigger picture. >>>> >>>> https://lore.kernel.org/ksummit/ab9cfd857e32635f626a906410ad95877a22f0db.camel@HansenPartnership.com/ >>> >>> I saw this when James first posted it. I may have been the lone figure to >>> do so as I had to point it out when the topic came up a second time ;-) >>> >>> https://lore.kernel.org/all/20230817104622.511c61b4@gandalf.local.home/ >>> >>> I'm all for having this discussion under James topic, but this idea of a >>> Support Group is something I've been discussing with other maintainers for >>> some time. I believe I even mentioned it to you while on the bus in Dublin. >> >> Thank you. Yes. We talked about this last year at Dublin. Work of being an >> Open source developer and especially a maintainer demands emotional labor. >> This is definitely a risk factor for burnout. >> >> I happened to com across an article today about burnout risk factors and some >> of those are faced by maintainers and developers. If you are interested, I can >> send the link. > > Collecting interesting (and hopefully useful) resources is a fairly low > effort exercise, so I'll start: > > "Negotiating the Nonnegotiable", by Daniel Shapiro > https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/314284/negotiating-the-nonnegotiable-by-daniel-shapiro/ Adding one I read this morning: A Burnout Risk Checklist Know your risk so you can prevent burnout. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/lessons-from-a-burnt-out-psychologist/202309/a-burnout-risk-checklist > >> I would recommend discussion this prior to the Maintainer summit in an open >> session to get input from developers and maintainers who aren't invited to >> the maintainers summit myself included. > > I wonder if I'm stating the obvious, but trying to figure out ways to > handle psychological problems in a group made of software developers > seems like we will be fairly short on essential skills for this kind of > exercise. Given the size of the affected community, I think we could > find ways to get professional help. > This discussion would be for coming up with a few solutions including the one you suggested - "find ways to get professional help". thanks, -- Shuah