From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.kernel.org (aws-us-west-2-korg-mail-1.web.codeaurora.org [10.30.226.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DED2D19CCFC; Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:20:40 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1721913641; cv=none; b=d3WtUR+lBiPFOAsaqnYbi/DjCS0CKpXI3r0eAFdUBTRtVEzGOBY/iUj/JBkhCm/zNPK2J4InCiuWL6kdVXxBPLP0WiVOzFNVAhwpKJi61+A6bg2F3e/hSZdj1urWr40Dm9jj/Apu2oxju21wKdGR6D/filFYwAfIbofyuVf8Wso= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1721913641; c=relaxed/simple; bh=BmN7iV9wcpqqgQhGKBwK/OUJL+8kNs8M4kyoFh/EA5U=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To; b=NFO2Hvtd/1j1t7KrcvG82EbuCHvR+27Sl2pcdcpS3THXh/YWlfzqzmRwCrBbrneOQuuRxXs8lnqt2pnLHmcsoxEc4nI8tl7Gz2vZLRui0Jpd/+2LaZII0S/XWsYnordub8C9Ks1VB9HzGi/iROB0i40RRIpDpahCHlbM62mn2yU= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b=WQATLw6H; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b="WQATLw6H" Received: by smtp.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AF3A5C116B1; Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:20:39 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kernel.org; s=k20201202; t=1721913640; bh=BmN7iV9wcpqqgQhGKBwK/OUJL+8kNs8M4kyoFh/EA5U=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=WQATLw6HWeqgFz9KizJ2ajfn87+VrCK09Eirr/Pz15fWJ9VV4aV+poDrKBrWY0SYl c1/UbHfxG+5jraTqOBv27qpfbzfEUariScd5geaihQ1+6LrUq54CxMuYpwFnB302HL XQfkoakUP56rA3Ei3jnBb46V7phCRB4EXspQR2cKEqHFvu7RzYLVRNZfHDBZrubPl5 gEvOojZXqbVtiif2y1XdYpHhPUSkKPbq6wyRE8a5gBS7Ggz4TSBaIq1XyljBjXyhsj CHy+y87owApN4Q3NJs8vt8om/S/a1zyHiKjAxBBDRXb8W9nQ33P2We64mt5/l/RKE0 g39OA3pfY7Mhg== Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:20:35 +0300 From: Leon Romanovsky To: Ricardo Ribalda Delgado Cc: Laurent Pinchart , James Bottomley , Jiri Kosina , Dan Williams , ksummit@lists.linux.dev, linux-cxl@vger.kernel.org, linux-rdma@vger.kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, jgg@nvidia.com Subject: Re: [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] Device Passthrough Considered Harmful? Message-ID: <20240725132035.GF7022@unreal> References: <668c67a324609_ed99294c0@dwillia2-xfh.jf.intel.com.notmuch> <1e82a5c97e915144e01dd65575929c15bc0db397.camel@HansenPartnership.com> <20240724200012.GA23293@pendragon.ideasonboard.com> <20240725122315.GE7022@unreal> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 03:02:13PM +0200, Ricardo Ribalda Delgado wrote: > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 2:23 PM Leon Romanovsky wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 11:26:38AM +0200, Ricardo Ribalda Delgado wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:02 PM Laurent Pinchart > > > wrote: > > > > <...> > > > > > > > > It would be great to define what are the free software communities > > > here. Distros and final users are also "free software communities" and > > > they do not care about niche use cases covered by proprietary > > > software. > > > > Are you certain about that? > > As a user, and as an open source Distro developer I have a small hint. > But you could also ask users what they think about not being able to > use their notebook's cameras. The last time that I could not use some > basic hardware from a notebook with Linux was 20 years ago. Lucky you, I still have consumer hardware (speaker) that doesn't work with Linux, and even now, there is basic hardware in my current laptop (HP docking station) that doesn't work reliably in Linux. > > > > > > They only care (and should care) about normal workflows. > > > > What is a normal workflow? > > Does it mean that if user bought something very expensive he > > should not be able to use it with free software, because his > > usage is different from yours? > > > > Thanks > > It means that we should not block the standard usage for 99% of the > population just because 1% of the users cannot do something fancy with > their device. Right, the problem is that in some areas the statistics slightly different. 99% population is blocked because 1% of the users don't need it and don't think that it is "normal" flow. > > Let me give you an example. When I buy a camera I want to be able to > do Video Conferencing and take some static photos of documents. I do > not care about: automatic makeup, AI generated background, unicorn > filters, eyes recentering... But we need to give a way to vendors to > implement those things closely, without the marketing differentiators, > vendors have zero incentive to invest in Linux, and that affects all > the population. > > This challenge seems to be solved for GPUs. I am using my AMD GPU > freely and my nephew can install the amdgpu-pro proprietary user space > driver to play duke nukem (or whatever kids play now) at 2000 fps. > > There are other other subsystems that allow vendor passthrough and > their ecosystem has not collapsed. Yes, I completely agree with you on that. > > Can we have some general guidance of what is acceptable? Can we define > together the "normal workflow" and focus on a *full* open source > implementation of that? I don't think that is possible to define "normal workflow". Requirement to have open-source counterpart to everything exposed through UAPI is a valid one. I'm all for that. Thanks > > -- > Ricardo Ribalda