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[204.195.22.127]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t184sm24228651pfd.49.2020.07.07.20.42.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 20:42:41 -0700 From: Stephen Hemminger To: Pavel Begunkov Message-ID: <20200707204241.36bea66a@hermes.lan> In-Reply-To: <4592008a-16ee-d8c4-4ec3-5e36a268e5d6@gmail.com> References: <159389297140.2210796.13590142254668787525.stgit@dwillia2-desk3.amr.corp.intel.com> <1cceba0f-c8ad-260d-9a09-5417bee32d50@gmail.com> <20200706181052.174c290a@oasis.local.home> <717030b7-ecba-2ca4-39ff-6a5a04a732d4@gmail.com> <20200706182819.3467fa32@oasis.local.home> <4592008a-16ee-d8c4-4ec3-5e36a268e5d6@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Greg Kroah-Hartman , tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [Tech-board-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology X-BeenThere: ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ksummit-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org Sender: "Ksummit-discuss" On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 02:03:36 +0300 Pavel Begunkov wrote: > On 07/07/2020 01:28, Steven Rostedt wrote: > > On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 01:17:47 +0300 > > Pavel Begunkov wrote: > > > >> Totally agree with you! But do we care then whether two _devices_ or _objects_ > >> are slave-master? Can't see how it fundamentally differs. > > > > The term slave carries a lot more meaning than subordinate. I replied to > > someone else but later realized that the person sent me their reply > > offlist, so my reply to them was also offlist. What I told them was, > > back in college (decades ago), when I first mentioned "master/slave" in > > conversation (I think it was about hard drives), a person in that > > conversation stated that those were not very nice terms to use. I blew > > it off back then, but after listening to more people, I found that > > using "slave" even to describe a device is not something that people > > care to hear about. > > That's cultural, but honestly I've never seen such a person. I still > don't understand, why having secondary or subordinate object belittling > the owned side by not providing it the same rights and freedom is OK, > but slave/master objects are not. Where is the line? > > > > > > And in actuality, does one device actually enslave another device? I > > think that terminology is misleading to begin with. > > As mentioned, I do like good clear terminology, and if it conveys the idea > better, etc., then it's worth to try. And IMHO that's the right reasoning > that should be behind. Otherwise, for almost every word we can find a person > seeing something subjectively offensive or at least bad in it. Wherever possible the kernel should use the same terminology as the current standard in that area. Many of the master/slave references in the networking code are for protocols based on IEEE 802 standards (unfortunately paywalled). The current version of those standards do not use this kind of wording and the standards committees are also actively working on inclusive language statemets. As far as the use of master/slave for bonding, bridge, team etc, it looks like Linux just invented using those terms since I don't see it any other vendors implementations Cisco/Juniper/Arista/... Linux terms are different than industry norms in networking, this is not a good thing. But changing human expectations is hard. _______________________________________________ Ksummit-discuss mailing list Ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ksummit-discuss