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a=lCpzRmAYbLLaTzLvsPZ7Mbvzbb8=:19 a=wKuvFiaSGQ0qltdbU6+NXLB8nM8=:19 a=Ol13hO9ccFRV9qXi2t6ftBPywas=:19 a=TBfmRqh3tgPmFEpE:21 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=2OwXVqhp2XgA:10 a=GoEa3M9JfhUA:10 a=dQENeJEMAAAA:8 a=JpD5qQkXxE1Wv_hHpXsA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=zosCLfkllANJ8uAOTg2h:22 cc=ntf awl=host:13596 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: kDR8mdW1hWekJ_dFvdNhjanrwgrUsnnU X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details-Enc: AW1haW4tMjUwODA1MDEzNSBTYWx0ZWRfXz1zUYPITqUjn r/KUIJSIbyBZfckInaNwtE/jgChDhb3IdSShGL36oIOuYe74gZiPH2eTOHizvbyQ/L0A7782HLa fi+RJdpfuWSjQqyyekrZd8qSQy7MOYpdjDBX+D5jTzLNfazNjWrsyMSiXMighlT/6E1VDeoYgRL DqvExZFkTyPTinIaZosmm/HCJsG+a3WMLcIk0HwEomWI9J4y/jkjXq1aLlTkzjM8LcOU6AqBHgz JHQ9XbWDWuxyt47/f5RVZzL4u3LWKdVzjKynJXKow5Dm6BVmiij0tmHDOsPbv+AEiPPOJZb4RPq MEr67XO26qv2wKPJuwMjGgQ3Zjkf7m2B/vaDtODqoYHjmVam6M6bCuInE9jijAGvDf6En7SsZLV B2aLHueFuYsMrUxxroftjJr1ND1vck8skEHxmormnooSPO4dAZlDBQWV4Sa6748BGRp6hGVp X-Proofpoint-GUID: kDR8mdW1hWekJ_dFvdNhjanrwgrUsnnU On Tue, Aug 05, 2025 at 02:39:20PM -0400, Sasha Levin wrote: > On Tue, Aug 05, 2025 at 06:55:29PM +0100, Lorenzo Stoakes wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 05, 2025 at 12:43:38PM -0400, James Bottomley wrote: > > > I think that's really overlooking the fact that if properly trained (a > > > somewhat big *if* depending on the model) AI should be very good at > > > writing safe code in unsafe languages. However it takes C specific > > > > I fundamentally disagree. > > > > The consequences of even extremely small mistakes can be very serious in C, > > as the language does little to nothing for you. > > > > No matter how much data it absorbs it cannot span the entire space of all > > possible programs or even anywhere close. > > Neither can a human :) > > I think that this is where we see things differently: I don't think that > AI needs to be perfect, I just want it to be at the same lever (or > better) than a human. Not at all, none of my objections are about perfection. I use LLMs myself, in appropriate circumstances where the expected failings are not problematic. My objections are to do with the the kinds of errors one can encounter with statistical inference like this. Humans do not confidently hallucinate in the absence of concrete data, rather we infer and model. This is dynamics vs. statistics (I genuinely recommend the article I linked to James, it's a fascinating insight - [0]). It's the _nature_ of these errors that I am concerned about in conjunction with unsafe development tooling and highly consequential results of even subtle errors that makes the kernel especially problematic in my view. > > Humans aren't great at writing C code. There's a reason we're looking at > using Rust for the kernel, and there's a reason that LTS trees exist - > they're living evidence of just how many mistakes humans make. Humans make human-like errors. and not at industrial scale :) > > Look at the contents of LTS trees or the CVEs that get assigned: most of > them are fairly simple memory safety issues, off-by-one, use-after-free, > etc... Absolutely. > > I don't think we should expect a bar for AI that is higher than the one > we set for humans. I'm not, rather I'm saying let's be aware of the kinds of issues we might encounter from LLMs and take them into account when establishing policy. > > -- > Thanks, > Sasha Regardless of where we feel the issues may/may not be, I think we can certainly agree that we ought to have policy on how we approach LLM-generated content, and determine broadly what maintainers want to do with it. Which I think is the _key_ point of the proposal more than anything! :) Cheers, Lorenzo [0]:https://blog.piekniewski.info/2016/11/01/statistics-and-dynamics/