From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27B1725A for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2016 16:48:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [209.132.183.28]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B3998A for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2016 16:48:52 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <1472230114.2751.67.camel@redhat.com> From: Rik van Riel To: Linus Torvalds Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 12:48:34 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <1472225332.2751.56.camel@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: "Bradley M. Kuhn" , ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [CORE TOPIC] GPL defense issues List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , On Fri, 2016-08-26 at 09:34 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote: > On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 8:28 AM, Rik van Riel > wrote: > > On Thu, 2016-08-25 at 22:24 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > > > > > What matters are the people - and companies - that actually > > > develop > > > and contribute code, and make the future happen. > > > > Are you saying that the freedom of end users > > to modify the software running on their Linux > > devices is irrelevant? > > Irrelevant? No. And are companies who violate the license a good > thing? No. > > But they really don't make a difference. In a very literal sense. > They > aren't improving the code - even in the hidden product itself. They do not have to for the GPL to work. What matters is that the users downstream from them have the freedom to modify the code on their devices. > > > The downstream freedoms seem to be generating > > new upstream communities all around us, for > > example OpenWRT. > > And I call bullshit. Anybody who tries to point to the lawsuits and > say that they were a big factor in the success of OpenWRT is actively > ignoring all the other - and hugely *bigger* factors - in the > successes of OpenWRT. I am not saying the lawsuits are any factor in the success of OpenWRT. What I am saying is that the end user freedoms specified in the GPL are just as important as the upstream community behind the original project, since the end user freedoms enable new projects, and new communities. > I'm sure you've had many of the same discussions that I have had with > other open source people working in various places who are sharing > horror stories about how some project was a nightmare and parts of > the > company was doing bad things. > > So even the good companies tend to have their warts. Of course the good companies make mistakes. They tend to get corrected after working with those companies for some period of time, sometimes several years. > So there's been lots of nugding and discussions and talking to people > going on when companies sometimes need encouragement to behave well. > And public shaming too - I think the things that Matthew does when he > points out truly crap hardware or horrible security issues are > *wonderful*. There is a lot of nudging and shaming going on, but little on the opposite direction. I wonder if it would make sense for an organization like SFC to compile a list of devices that are GPL compliant? Companies that sell Linux devices could submit their devices for inclusion on that list, with a URL to the source code, etc. The stick of shaming and GPL enforcment efforts might be more effective if there is also a carrot, directing customers towards the devices that are compliant. > We need to stop the antagonistic threatening stances, and we need to > stop having lawyers involved, and have people who can actually talk > to > companies *without* getting that "turtle" response. > > Because that approach really does have a proven track record.  And > I'm > pretty sure you know that too. Lawsuits appear to be the absolute last resort for the SFC. If there are people who believe the non-lawsuit GPL compliance work by the SFC is still too antagonistic, it may be worth discussing exactly why people feel that way, and whether anybody has ideas for better ways to go about GPL compliance.