From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from casper.infradead.org (casper.infradead.org [90.155.50.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FBAC1BFDF6 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 08:08:50 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=90.155.50.34 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1726214937; cv=none; b=Pl5Mi3QLkna89kNIxni1dmDbDk3GKdD1LyLyirfgHUckpi6VPWuIceJDc0L8EYaZOv3UIle/bG6hRV+CWuOnfx11UmSuX7ClHCNZB42VSx/onBRpRhhb6RsZaCezyMEGKH6g7Lg24ktQB+8oIYDa0f/E1xMbMab3vhjo9ikO5HA= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1726214937; c=relaxed/simple; bh=VrtmopJmgVFNb4vie+742ZEnTdMXVxBkK4TiYPVyBKA=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=n/Kb367J3LCdPVH+eK4slOSf7JEuaGXpXSznVEgh4lx+q1yffU/Vf/8nkTRXG//jeGe8UJRdnTTYIH/0Pqsh7jeCjt5NGFsyBfI3DepdHVQ8+N7WrVprBNwmgo4eNgQvg1VRNK8bwisANuqVJMVHvnsA/QjEaROrEwyyyY4nbHo= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=infradead.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=casper.srs.infradead.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=infradead.org header.i=@infradead.org header.b=eGAaSUr4; arc=none smtp.client-ip=90.155.50.34 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=infradead.org Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=casper.srs.infradead.org Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=infradead.org header.i=@infradead.org header.b="eGAaSUr4" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=infradead.org; s=casper.20170209; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:References: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=VrtmopJmgVFNb4vie+742ZEnTdMXVxBkK4TiYPVyBKA=; b=eGAaSUr4C2dqf0jAcAKrCIkFLm FGvgXIwNd7+3vtkJ4F/PU6Ejjv/XQpYVdINiJ1PTRnGXJbEuPbcCHAf+UCw84meVuaEl9K7qlWf6A /ANj0LTTOJvpCXZKCYgVTdcgzI5Ehqs4Jnl15SwRQSFtdCISI6DmEpE3ThGSS4SQ7rNublq0Hl87G J2EAjaiPjNkfm1EJAxmTA0lJq+zUuVy9Tf0xsq9E6YvM9wvohyymnWEjNQywx48FRQDnVy+JcsnyI L62iZ6RZi2d6PoWPS2xN8XJU1ljnDhKY31kLJj4zkMJ4ivJjDThg0tMZZYyWBRBtctOpA/eDzz6QJ 8SZuH2LQ==; Received: from [2001:8b0:10b:5:35f8:5375:2120:5b2f] (helo=u3832b3a9db3152.ant.amazon.com) by casper.infradead.org with esmtpsa (Exim 4.98 #2 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1sp1MA-0000000GKKa-19hN; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 08:08:42 +0000 Message-ID: <0ebbade1dd90305b4abf1315a2735f7f7caa81bd.camel@infradead.org> Subject: Re: [MAINTAINERS SUMMIT] State of dt-bindings and DT source files, and invitation request From: David Woodhouse To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ar=C4=B1n=C3=A7_=C3=9CNAL?= , Rob Herring Cc: ksummit@lists.linux.dev, Krzysztof Kozlowski , Conor Dooley Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 09:08:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <32400a92-23c0-4ec3-9e42-29074e6db1f5@arinc9.com> References: <972ed553-c917-41d1-be6e-b8a3ab90b66a@arinc9.com> <32400a92-23c0-4ec3-9e42-29074e6db1f5@arinc9.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-4ssMbXuwUJnQkGZxFNeB" User-Agent: Evolution 3.44.4-0ubuntu2 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: ksummit@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SRS-Rewrite: SMTP reverse-path rewritten from by casper.infradead.org. See http://www.infradead.org/rpr.html --=-4ssMbXuwUJnQkGZxFNeB Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2024-09-12 at 15:57 +0300, Ar=C4=B1n=C3=A7 =C3=9CNAL wrote > Over the course of years, I've had maintainers resisting to or completely > blocking my changes on the device tree definitions because of Linux drive= r > related reasons. I couldn't have patches that fixed incorrect hardware > definitions to be applied, because the maintainer would demand a change o= n > Linux driver to happen beforehand. I've stumbled upon misconceptions such > as thinking that a Linux driver change could break ABI. In reality, that = is > nonsense because a driver change represents the implementation being > changed, not the bindings. The implementation change can only be so that = it > breaks compliance with the bindings. We should be careful here. The device-tree bindings are the definition of the ABI. But they are only words; what matters is the interface between the DT blob itself and the OS drivers which interpret them. If we want to *change* that ABI in a way which breaks users of it, then of *course* we have to consider a transition path for those users. That's true of *any* ABI, be it a command line, a library ABI, or the device-tree bindings. So where you say, "blocking my changes on the device tree definitions because of Linux driver related reasons", that isn't necessarily wrong. A breaking change to an ABI *needs* to have a transition plan for how its users get from old to new without a flag day. --=-4ssMbXuwUJnQkGZxFNeB Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCEkQw ggYQMIID+KADAgECAhBNlCwQ1DvglAnFgS06KwZPMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBDAUAMIGIMQswCQYDVQQG EwJVUzETMBEGA1UECBMKTmV3IEplcnNleTEUMBIGA1UEBxMLSmVyc2V5IENpdHkxHjAcBgNVBAoT FVRoZSBVU0VSVFJVU1QgTmV0d29yazEuMCwGA1UEAxMlVVNFUlRydXN0IFJTQSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0 aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTAeFw0xODExMDIwMDAwMDBaFw0zMDEyMzEyMzU5NTlaMIGWMQswCQYDVQQG EwJHQjEbMBkGA1UECBMSR3JlYXRlciBNYW5jaGVzdGVyMRAwDgYDVQQHEwdTYWxmb3JkMRgwFgYD VQQKEw9TZWN0aWdvIExpbWl0ZWQxPjA8BgNVBAMTNVNlY3RpZ28gUlNBIENsaWVudCBBdXRoZW50 aWNhdGlvbiBhbmQgU2VjdXJlIEVtYWlsIENBMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKC AQEAyjztlApB/975Rrno1jvm2pK/KxBOqhq8gr2+JhwpKirSzZxQgT9tlC7zl6hn1fXjSo5MqXUf 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